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Textbook 
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 Posted: August 08 2010 at 20:58 |
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I suppose you're right in that light. There was a time when virtually 100% of people in most places were religious, so they themselves came up with atheism and "converted".
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: August 08 2010 at 22:10 |
 Textbook wrote:
Depending on how you define religion, atheism could be a religion. If a religion necessarily involves gods and afterlife then it's not but if a religion is simply a framework for living life and guiding actions, perhaps one that you adverise to other people hoping they join you, then it could be. But then almost anything could be by that definition: musical preferences, a diet regime, political beliefs, economic views, etc etc. |
Well, the term religiouus is not accurate (I went too far) but what I wanted to say and the only thing in what I agree with Pat Condell, is that some atheists have an organization similar to any Church.
Let's start with a definition:
1.- Church a group, organization, or set of beliefs which includes a wide range of different opinions or ideas
It's clear this guys have a set of beliefs and they are making efforts to convert people.
2.- They act as preachers sharing their "Gospel" with the rest of the world.
3.- They accept donations, sell books and use any media resource to gain supporters and converts
4.- Most important, they have a sectarian and aggressive position as many radical churches, they feel offended by other people's beliefs, attack them and claim they own the only truth
Mr Condell (Who Mike posted with so many praises), says about some atheists "They are slaves of a different dogma"
So....What's the difference?
They act as many churches, but not as the moderate ones, but as some ultra Fundamentalist sects of Christianity.
But when I dared to say this same thing some months ago...I was attacked and some made mockery of my opinion.
For God's sake, there are groups of Atheists (significative or not) that even ghave commandments. 
Iván
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Textbook
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Posted: August 08 2010 at 22:18 |
What about anti-smoking campaigners? Are they a "religion" too?
Ivan: I'm not too sure about the wisdom of illustrating that your opponents are the same as you.
Edited by Textbook - August 08 2010 at 22:18
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: August 08 2010 at 22:44 |
Textbook wrote:
What about anti-smoking campaigners? Are they a "religion" too?
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Please, anti smoking campaigns are a different thing,
It's a health campaign normally organized with the support or by a government against a product that is PROVED 100% HARMFUL.
They don't have any kind of philosophy, and they don't force people to stop smoking..they just regulate where you can smoke..
BTW: Corrected my term from RELIGION to CHURCH.
Textbook wrote:
Ivan: I'm not too sure about the wisdom of illustrating that your opponents are the same as you. |
Never said we were the same, I said they have a similar organization.
Iván
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - August 08 2010 at 22:49
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TGM: Orb
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Posted: August 08 2010 at 22:53 |
JLocke wrote:
TGM: Orb wrote:
I have to wonder if anyone who claims to be able to disprove the existence of god in a nine minute video has ever wondered why so many bloody intelligent people have (and for a very long time) been religious and have explored theology...
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Because plenty of people, even very intelligent ones, can choose to believe anything if they feel like it will better their lives. And even more intelligent people are born within a religious/spiritual family, and are brought up with it, so it's easier for them to accept.
Smart people choosing to believe in dumb things doesn't prove that their is an all-powerful being in the sky. It just doesn't. |
Did I suggest that? (well, I thought I was suggesting that the issue of the existence of a god is actually a pretty complicated one and a lot of people have thought about it a lot since prehistory. I think any claim to be able to disprove two thousand years of thought in nine minutes is going to at best disprove particular (and over-) simplifications of that thought. My point, if anything, was that aetheists are not the only people who think and think critically and that religious people are not the only people capable of choosing to believe what they think will advantage them and videos such as the two Mike posted in the last few pages tend to neglect this)
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Textbook
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Posted: August 08 2010 at 23:05 |
Well, many people who campaign for atheism believe that religion is a harmful thing you know, just like smoking. You might debate that but so do the cigarette manufacturers.
Also, one could argue that they are trying to force people to stop smoking but they realise people would riot if they did it in one fell swoop. They're incrementally nickling and diming it to death.
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: August 08 2010 at 23:18 |
Textbook wrote:
Well, many people who campaign for atheism believe that religion is a harmful thing you know, just like smoking. You might debate that but so do the cigarette manufacturers. |
Atheists think.....EVERYBODY KNOWS CIGARRETTES ARE HARMFUL, I smoke and I know.
Plus we are talking about a health campaign, not a doctrine, dogma, religion or philosophy.
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Textbook wrote:
Also, one could argue that they are trying to force people to stop smoking but they realise people would riot if they did it in one fell swoop. They're incrementally nickling and diming it to death. |
Again, it's a health issue, not a doctrine, dogma, religion or philosophy.
Iván
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Chris S
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Posted: August 08 2010 at 23:24 |
TGM: Orb wrote:
JLocke wrote:
TGM: Orb wrote:
I have to wonder if anyone who claims to be able to disprove the existence of god in a nine minute video has ever wondered why so many bloody intelligent people have (and for a very long time) been religious and have explored theology...
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Because plenty of people, even very intelligent ones, can choose to believe anything if they feel like it will better their lives. And even more intelligent people are born within a religious/spiritual family, and are brought up with it, so it's easier for them to accept.
Smart people choosing to believe in dumb things doesn't prove that their is an all-powerful being in the sky. It just doesn't. |
Did I suggest that?
(well, I thought I was suggesting that the issue of the existence of a god is actually a pretty complicated one and a lot of people have thought about it a lot since prehistory. I think any claim to be able to disprove two thousand years of thought in nine minutes is going to at best disprove particular (and over-) simplifications of that thought.
My point, if anything, was that aetheists are not the only people who think and think critically and that religious people are not the only people capable of choosing to believe what they think will advantage them and videos such as the two Mike posted in the last few pages tend to neglect this)
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On the subject of an existence of God, I was watching the new Edward Norton movie- Leaves of Grass and this professor had made a comment that the problem with the human species is that we are plain and simple just animals. The complication arises beacause our friggin brains tell us differently....hmm food for thought. Personally I strongly prefer the belief that there is the physical and metaphysical i.e a GOD
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JLocke
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Posted: August 08 2010 at 23:35 |
TGM: Orb wrote:
JLocke wrote:
TGM: Orb wrote:
I have to wonder if anyone who claims to be able to disprove the existence of god in a nine minute video has ever wondered why so many bloody intelligent people have (and for a very long time) been religious and have explored theology...
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Because plenty of people, even very intelligent ones, can choose to believe anything if they feel like it will better their lives. And even more intelligent people are born within a religious/spiritual family, and are brought up with it, so it's easier for them to accept.
Smart people choosing to believe in dumb things doesn't prove that their is an all-powerful being in the sky. It just doesn't. |
Did I suggest that?
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Yes.
(well, I thought I was suggesting that the issue of the existence of a god is actually a pretty complicated one and a lot of people have thought about it a lot since prehistory. |
The existence of a god was a concept proposed by people who had no other way of explaining the world around them at the time. The only reason the issue is complicated (in my eyes) is because certain people start fudging up science and reason with magic and the supernatural rather than just admitting that such beliefs have long been discounted. Sure, it's complicated when you try to explain the unexplainable. But to someone like me, making a case for the existence of a god is the same as making a case for the existence of the lochness monster. The issues surrounding such mindset may indeed be complicated, but not because the idea itself so much as because the supporters of the mindset are still around, choosing to make it complicated.
| I think any claim to be able to disprove two thousand years of thought in nine minutes is going to at best disprove particular (and over-) simplifications of that thought. |
I don't know a single rational human being who would try to 'disprove thought'. We're just disproving an old book that is full of holes and immoral doctrines. Again, just because people have 'thought' a certain way about it for two thousand years doesn't mean we can't disprove the thing that has caused that thought process in the first place. Christians choose to continue believing in the bible because they want to, so no, I could never change their thought process. But that doesn't make them right.
What if I said that I chose to believe in the Easter Bunny? Even though it's not logical or sane. I could always come back at you and say: ''Well, you can't prove that he doesn't exist, can you?'' Yes, you could. You could set up a camera to film around my house all Easter long, and of course he wouldn't show up. But then I could simply say: ''Well, he simply chose not to show up today because he wants us to believe he exists based on faith.'' You would have disproved my beliefs to everybody else except me, and nothing you could ever do or say would change my mind, because I would be determined to believe in it, regardless.
See where I'm getting at, here?
My point, if anything, was that aetheists are not the only people who think and think critically and that religious people are not the only people capable of choosing to believe what they think will advantage them and videos such as the two Mike posted in the last few pages tend to neglect this)
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Anybody who would claim to speak for every Atheist or every believer is obviously talking out of his or her ass. My family is very religious, and I don't consider them stupid or delusional. Yet I can't help but be boggled at how I ever could have believed in such things, and I hope that one day my family will wake up as I did. But I don't look down on them or think that I'm incapable of acting similarly in another situation.
There is one very huge flaw in what you just said, however. If any Atheist felt that only their fellow non-believers could think critically, then why would they even try to reach Christians and get them to see their side of things? If they didn't think the believers could think for themselves, I dare say they wouldn't even bother. Many, many Atheists were once Christians. That proves right there that believers can also think critically about things and not throw in their lot with whatever makes them feel good. They can get out of their present situations.
I'll go a step further. Apologetics. If we thought all Christians were sheep, how then could we possibly explain this practice? An apologist's very job is to research and think critically! So that they can perhaps better explain and interpret their beliefs in modern times. They never really explain it to anybody else's satisfaction, of course, but the fact that they do what they do proves that believers in the supernatural are very much capable of critical thought-- and still remain in their religion!
So don't come in here accusing anybody of generalizing the believers. I certainly don't, although there are general traits that I tend to see when I debate believers. That does not make them all the same. If either of those videos did indeed imply that only Atheists could think for themselves, and were incapable of believing in the unprovable, then both of those guys are ignorant. But I'm willing to bet that's not what they meant at all, and you're just creating strawmen to fight against.
Bill Maher is a PeTA supporter and is anti-vaccination, reportedly. That means he not only supports a cause without checking his facts (PeTA has more than a few skeletons in their closet), but he also subscribes to a philosophy that is complete pseudo-science mumbo-jumbo (the anti-vaccination movement is not supported by anything close to credible).
There you go. Proof that a non-believer can still be taken in by something if it makes him feel personally good about his life.
Edited by JLocke - August 08 2010 at 23:53
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Proletariat
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Posted: August 08 2010 at 23:39 |
if you sayed "i believe in the easter bunny"
I would say "okeydokeyhokeypokey"
perhaps I would chuckle... but I wouldnt try and prove you wrong necesarily...
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who hiccuped endlessly trying to giggle but wound up with a sob
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JLocke
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Posted: August 08 2010 at 23:46 |
Chris S wrote:
On the subject of an existence of God, I was watching the new Edward Norton movie- Leaves of Grass and this professor had made a comment that the problem with the human species is that we are plain and simple just animals. The complication arises beacause our friggin brains tell us differently....hmm food for thought. Personally I strongly prefer the belief that there is the physical and metaphysical i.e a GOD |
How do our brains tell us anything different? My brain tells me that I am indeed just another animal on this planet. More advanced and mentally capable than the rest, I grant you, but so what? Gorillas are more advances and mentally capable than fleas. Does that prove anything other than the fact that some animals are smarter than others?
If it's what you prefer to believe in, that's absolutely fine. But keep in mind that we have discovered absolutely nothing which can replicated or explained by science that would support your belief. If we choose to believe in things because it's cool to think about, or it humbles us, I don't have a problem with it. It's when such beliefs get out of hand to the point where doctrines & rituals are spoon fed to people, and when the beliefs are pushed onto the rest of the free world. (i.e. Religion). When your belief remains personal and non-hostile or disruptive, i can't think of any reason to openly oppose it. Yeah, I think it's silly and don't agree with it, but it's not causing any direct harm on others, so what business is it of mine?
Philosophically viewing the world as a creation by something greater than ourselves is beautiful and intriguing from a hypothetical perspective. Writing it down as law and telling everybody else to think the same thing, on the other hand, is evil and wrong. It's the latter that I oppose, not the former. 
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JLocke
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Posted: August 08 2010 at 23:49 |
Proletariat wrote:
if you sayed "i believe in the easter bunny"
I would say "okeydokeyhokeypokey"
perhaps I would chuckle... but I wouldnt try and prove you wrong necesarily... |
What if I were trying to pass laws that publicly forced people to support my crazy belief, integrating it into common law, public displays, school curriculum, your country's flag pledge, etc.? Would you feel a little more game to openly oppose me then?
Edited by JLocke - August 08 2010 at 23:50
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Textbook
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Posted: August 08 2010 at 23:53 |
Is having poor self esteem a component of the religious mindset?
In the interest of maintaining a reasoned, carefully researched and diplomatic dialogue, I say YES.
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JLocke
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Posted: August 08 2010 at 23:54 |
Textbook wrote:
Is having poor self esteem a component of the religious mindset?
In the interest of maintaining a reasoned, carefully researched and diplomatic dialogue, I say YES. |
How so?
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Proletariat
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Posted: August 08 2010 at 23:54 |
JLocke wrote:
Proletariat wrote:
if you sayed "i believe in the easter bunny"
I would say "okeydokeyhokeypokey"
perhaps I would chuckle... but I wouldnt try and prove you wrong necesarily... |
What if I were trying to pass laws that publicly forced people to support my crazy belief, integrating it into common law, public displays, school curriculum, your country's flag pledge, etc.? Would you feel a little more game to openly oppose me then? |
not if there were consiquences hahahaha i can move.... and you can make your beliefs importaint to culture but not to me. besides the idea of belief is silly. belief changes nothing.
the easter bunny... and jesus are harmless enough for the most part. now there are extremes such as some of the anti gay legislation in uganda / ethnic cleansing. but I would be upset because of lives lost not because of the belief
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who hiccuped endlessly trying to giggle but wound up with a sob
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Textbook
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Posted: August 08 2010 at 23:59 |
JJJLocke: Well this is an old one, but the idea is that far from being full of faith and belief, a theist is actually lacking in faith and belief. They cannot believe that they are a valid entity. They don't believe or trust in the value of the world as it is. Love and happiness do not suffice, still they doubt. They find themselves to be pitiful and pointless and thus require belief in something bigger than them that looks after them in order to function.
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thellama73
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Posted: August 09 2010 at 00:00 |
Textbook wrote:
JJJLocke: Well this is an old one, but the idea is that far from being full of faith and belief, a theist is actually lacking in faith and belief. They cannot believe that they are a valid entity. They don't believe or trust in the value of the world as it is. Love and happiness do not suffice, still they doubt. They find themselves to be pitiful and pointless and thus require belief in something bigger than them that looks after them in order to function. |
I think that's silly.
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Textbook
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Posted: August 09 2010 at 00:03 |
Why? If you feel lonely and insecure and worthless, you create a big benevolenet sky god the way a child creates an imaginary friend.
I think you only think it's silly because it's a quick and unflattering dismissal of something many people have taken seriously for thousands of years. But that doesn't in any way mean there's nothing to it.
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JLocke
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Posted: August 09 2010 at 00:08 |
Proletariat wrote:
JLocke wrote:
Proletariat wrote:
if you sayed "i believe in the easter bunny"
I would say "okeydokeyhokeypokey"
perhaps I would chuckle... but I wouldnt try and prove you wrong necesarily... |
What if I were trying to pass laws that publicly forced people to support my crazy belief, integrating it into common law, public displays, school curriculum, your country's flag pledge, etc.? Would you feel a little more game to openly oppose me then? |
not if there were consiquences hahahaha i can move.... and you can make your beliefs importaint to culture but not to me. besides the idea of belief is silly. belief changes nothing.
the easter bunny... and jesus are harmless enough for the most part. now there are extremes such as some of the anti gay legislation in uganda / ethnic cleansing. but I would be upset because of lives lost not because of the belief |
Then I guess I have nothing more to say to you. If all you would care about is whether or not my crazy laws affected you personally, then you're not the sort of person who I expect would care much about anything unless it somehow made your own life inconvenient. That's a shame, but there it is.
There are consequences, friend. Maybe not for you, but for others. Certain groups of people aren't allowed to marry and are forced to lie in order to fight for their country. Children are being taught theology as if it were science, and are being given history books that have been omitted and re-worked. People are asked to mention the name of a sky-god whenever they salute their country's flag. Fictional doctrines such as the ten commandments were legally forced into remaining in a court house, a place meant for real law. A place where not just god-believers spend their time, but everybody else, as well.
Where I come from, that's putting a gigantic wedge into a of people's freedoms. All of what I mentioned is happening or has happened in the USA. Just one country, and all that injustice. Persecution. Limitation. All because of an old book! Do you honestly not understand why some people like myself feel like the whole thing is grossly unfair and unjust?
You may not notice the repercussions of silly beliefs in your day-to-day life, but the moment we allow those beliefs to start dictating how we run a free and equal country, it's ultimately leads to injustice. As I feel it has reached in my country. As I said only a post or two ago, I don't care if someone wants to believe in craziness on their own time. But when it gets to the point it is now, even if it doesn't hinder me personally, it does hinder people. And I'm going to oppose it, yes. Because I care about equal freedoms for all. I would absolutely love to see Christians keep on believing of that's how they choose to spend their lives, but this tradition on bending at the will of a religious group and allowing their life philosophies to run everybody else's lives has to stop.
By the way, if there would ever come a time when Atheists started telling Christians they could no longer worship, or start taking away their rights, I would be on the Christians' side fighting against the Atheists in that case. I don't think one mindset dictating to the world is good, regardless if I happen to agree with the mindset or not.
Edited by JLocke - August 09 2010 at 00:18
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JLocke
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Posted: August 09 2010 at 00:15 |
Textbook wrote:
Why? If you feel lonely and insecure and worthless, you create a big benevolenet sky god the way a child creates an imaginary friend.
I think you only think it's silly because it's a quick and unflattering dismissal of something many people have taken seriously for thousands of years. But that doesn't in any way mean there's nothing to it. |
No, I actually don't agree with you, here.
The concept of a greater being than ourselves can come in many packages, some more extravagant than others. Not everybody who believes in a god also feels worthless or unworthy. That's more of a Judeo Christian idea, I think. I would also make the argument that most Christians and practicing Jews don't feel this way about themselves, either. It's a concept, not an everyday emotion. I certainly didn't feel like a piece of crap when I proclaimed myself a Christian.
No, I suspect it was mainly just the concept that made the most sense to people at the time of the idea's origin. I mean, if science didn't exist today and we had no advancements in medicine, technology, any of it, would we really be so different? I think we'd probably all come to a similar conclusion, to be honest. When you witness things you can't explain, it's human nature to reach for the extraordinary explanation first.
But all that is just my opinion, of course. No one can know for sure how the concept was born or why.
Edited by JLocke - August 09 2010 at 00:20
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