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Topic ClosedTheism vs. Atheism ... will it ever be settled?
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Mr ProgFreak View Drop Down
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Points: 5195 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 08 2010 at 12:48
^ I know that he's not likely to "reach" any religious person and even many atheists will find him too annoying - I like his videos a lot though, and I'll continue posting videos if I think that they are on topic (in this case the video is spot on topic because it deals with the question whether it's important to discuss the matter at all).

Here's another interesting, recently posted video:



It deals with atheists criticizing other, more outspoken atheists - so again it's spot on topic.


Edited by Mr ProgFreak - August 08 2010 at 12:48
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JLocke View Drop Down
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Points: 4900 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 08 2010 at 13:19
^ Do what you want, but no videos of his has made anybody on this forum think yet. Just don't want to see you put in a wasted effort.

The guy you just posted is much more sensible in the way he presents himself. I've watched him before. Maybe the guys here will give HIM a chance. 
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 08 2010 at 15:17
I find the videos pointless - either you agree with the content or you don't - if you don't there's not much you can do about it, it's not like you can argue back to the guy who made it (which a bit like my Nan saying "goodnight" back to the Newsreaders at the end of the News bulletin - sure you can do it, but unless you're past 80 and not sure what day it is, people will stare at you).
 
Last night I was watching the old debate between Ahmed Deedat and Jimmy Swaggart entitled "Is The Bible The Word of God?" and at one point Deedat (because Swaggart used it in his closing statement) brings up the passage in Acts 9 concerning the conversion of Saul on the road to Damascus where in KJV bible it says:
 
5And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks."
 
whereas the NKJV (which Swaggart used) says:
 
5 And he said, “Who are You, Lord?” Then the Lord said, “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. It is hard for you to kick against the goads.”
 
and later versions omit the phrase completely:
 
5And he said, "Who are you, Lord?" And he said, "I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting."
 
 
If that is the word of God, Deedat argues (and I'm paraphrasing), why did they change it from 'pricks' to 'goads'? ... What is this word 'goads'?  - I have been asking Christians for years what is 'goads' and they don't know - I do not know this word, it is a new word, 'goads' - they changed 'pricks' to 'goads'... why?
 
At this point I'm thinking ...hang on Ahmed Deedat was a really smart chap - he was an erudite and knowledgeable Muslim scholar who was well versed in the Bible and its meanings. Surely he must know that the phrase is referring to the long pointy stick that 1st century Hebrew farmers used to poke the oxen who were pulling the plough, which is known as either a prick or a goad - the two words mean the same thing and are interchangeable. And I then it dawned - of course Deedat knew the meaning - he was counting on his audience not knowing, and more importantly, Haggart not knowing. As I said - he was a really smart chap.
 
Anyway, that other dude - the one in the video on the previous page that I watched for 44 seconds - if he said that oxygen was a necessary element for life on Earth I'd feel like arguing against him because he had that kind of arrogant manner and attitude that makes you want to metaphorically kick him in the goad.


Edited by Dean - August 08 2010 at 15:19
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Textbook View Drop Down
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Points: 3281 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 08 2010 at 16:15
Not that she was a figurehead of the movement but I note Anne Rice has quit the church very publicly apparently after realising that is not a spiritual thing but an extension of the Republican Party. Interestingly, she says she still has faith in Jesus and love for him, but she rejects the teachings of modern church leaders who attempt to use Jesus/the Bible for their own ends on Earth.
 
Apparently the final straw was some minister saying "Executing homosexuals is moral. On average, a homosexual molests 117 people before they are found out."
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Points: 8052 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 08 2010 at 16:36
Originally posted by Mr ProgFreak Mr ProgFreak wrote:

Just watched this on YouTube ... very concise. I completely agree with it, and I recommend watching it to anyone who has been following this thread this far.





That video seems to be mostly devoted to reversible strawman attacks.

I have to wonder if anyone who claims to be able to disprove the existence of god in a nine minute video has ever wondered why so many bloody intelligent people have (and for a very long time) been religious and have explored theology...
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Points: 3281 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 08 2010 at 16:52
I shifted from atheism to apatheism a while ago though I didn't know it was called that at the time. Atheism may not be as silly as theism, but it's just as unprovable.
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Points: 19557 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 08 2010 at 17:59
Originally posted by Mr ProgFreak Mr ProgFreak wrote:

^ How so?
 

Because the guy is a perfect idiot (Referring to the amazing atheist)

I don't agree with Dawkins, but I have to admit the he is intelligent (fanatic, radical, but intelligent), this poor idiot claims having proved what the greatest minds in the world have never been able to prove.

When the video started I believed the guy was a radical Christian Fundamentalist making mockery of Atheists, because the guy has the style and arrogance sct preacher, like those who believe their word is the universal truth.

The guy talks about a caricature Christian, there are hundreds of cliches that reveal absolute ignorance of Christianity...This moron has mentioned all of them.

Then he says the burden of proof is in us who believe, hey, we only believe, we don't try to convnce ohers (At least most of us)....But then he says I HAVE PROVED GOD DOESN'T EXIST...Isn't the weight of proof on him?

Atheists like this guy make rational Christians laugh and will make radical fanatics even more fanatics, because an idiot can only cause a reaction on another idiot.

Iván
 
 
 
 


Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - August 08 2010 at 18:13
            
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Points: 19557 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 08 2010 at 18:07
Originally posted by Mr ProgFreak Mr ProgFreak wrote:

^ I know that he's not likely to "reach" any religious person and even many atheists will find him too annoying - I like his videos a lot though, and I'll continue posting videos if I think that they are on topic (in this case the video is spot on topic because it deals with the question whether it's important to discuss the matter at all).

Here's another interesting, recently posted video:



It deals with atheists criticizing other, more outspoken atheists - so again it's spot on topic.
 
I wonder why when I say some atheists behave as members of a religion, you and many  others criticize me, but when another atheist says the same.....You post him?
 
Iván
            
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Points: 3281 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 08 2010 at 18:28
Depending on how you define religion, atheism could be a religion. If a religion necessarily  involves gods and afterlife then it's not but if a religion is simply a framework for living life and guiding actions, perhaps one that you adverise to other people hoping they join you, then it could be. But then almost anything could be by that definition: musical preferences, a diet regime, political beliefs, economic views, etc etc.
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Points: 4900 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 08 2010 at 18:54
What you're describing is a philosophy, or a lifestyle. Not 'religion' as most people seem to define it.
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Points: 3281 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 08 2010 at 18:57

Yeah well perhaps the only difference between religion and philosophy is men in funny clothes.
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Points: 4900 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 08 2010 at 19:06
If you want to simplify it like that, go ahead. You won't have much support from me. 
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Points: 1882 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 08 2010 at 19:07
Originally posted by Mr ProgFreak Mr ProgFreak wrote:

^ I know that he's not likely to "reach" any religious person and even many atheists will find him too annoying - I like his videos a lot though, and I'll continue posting videos if I think that they are on topic (in this case the video is spot on topic because it deals with the question whether it's important to discuss the matter at all).

Here's another interesting, recently posted video:



It deals with atheists criticizing other, more outspoken atheists - so again it's spot on topic.
this guy is an idiot. he makes my beliefs look bad... The best part of my leaving my parents Evangilistic faith was the ability to not care what others think or if they agree with me. If we all go to the same place then why not let others believe whatever they want?
who hiccuped endlessly trying to giggle but wound up with a sob
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Points: 4900 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 08 2010 at 19:11
Originally posted by TGM: Orb TGM: Orb wrote:

I have to wonder if anyone who claims to be able to disprove the existence of god in a nine minute video has ever wondered why so many bloody intelligent people have (and for a very long time) been religious and have explored theology...

Because plenty of people, even very intelligent ones, can choose to believe anything if they feel like it will better their lives. And even more intelligent people are born within a religious/spiritual family, and are brought up with it, so it's easier for them to accept. 

Smart people choosing to believe in dumb things doesn't prove that their is an all-powerful being in the sky. It just doesn't. 
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Points: 3281 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 08 2010 at 19:12

JJLocke: No, the real difference between philosophy and religion is that philosophers require a source of information to base claims on whereas religious people allow for information that magically appears from nowhere, eg all knowledge about the afterlife.



Edited by Textbook - August 08 2010 at 19:16
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JLocke View Drop Down
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Points: 4900 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 08 2010 at 19:15
Originally posted by Textbook Textbook wrote:

JJLocke: No, the real difference between philosophy and religion is that philosophers require a source of information to base claims on whereas religious people allow for information that magically appears from nowhere, ie all knowledge about the afterlife.


I think you're getting my name mixed up with JJLehto. Wink Just one J in my name. 

I guess you could call anything a 'religion' if you make it as broad as you did in an earlier post. But I'm saying that we non-believers consider religion to be a very specific thing (the textbook definition, I dare say), and so that is why we tend to take offense if and when somebody else calls our lack of belief a 'religion'. 

But hey, it's all in how you choose to look at it, I guess. Smile
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Points: 17493 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 08 2010 at 19:35
Mike, your previous videos with Dawkins and Hitchens and even the guy with the white hair were long and tedious but interesting and showed intelligent people talking about their fait... ehem, their ideas about the non-existence of god. But you have really gone downhill ever since you started posting videos of The Amazing YouTube Loser... You're making atheists look like a****le morons... Wink Go back to the 40 minute videos Mike, at least if one had the time to watch them one could get a good view of their perspective.... With The Amazing Atheist all you get is a perspective of what having too much time on your hands can degenerate into... 
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 08 2010 at 19:39
Originally posted by JLocke JLocke wrote:

Originally posted by Textbook Textbook wrote:

JJLocke: No, the real difference between philosophy and religion is that philosophers require a source of information to base claims on whereas religious people allow for information that magically appears from nowhere, ie all knowledge about the afterlife.


I think you're getting my name mixed up with JJLehto. Wink Just one J in my name. 

I guess you could call anything a 'religion' if you make it as broad as you did in an earlier post. But I'm saying that we non-believers consider religion to be a very specific thing (the textbook definition, I dare say), and so that is why we tend to take offense if and when somebody else calls our lack of belief a 'religion'. 

But hey, it's all in how you choose to look at it, I guess. Smile
Of course if Theism didn't exist we wouldn't need Atheism - we'd all just get on with our lives in the way that all atheists do at the moment (okay, all execpt the people who make these vids). Just as Theism is an invention of man, then Atheism is specifically an invention of Theists.
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Points: 3281 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 08 2010 at 19:45
Surely it's a reaction to them, not an invention of them.
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 08 2010 at 19:55
Originally posted by Textbook Textbook wrote:

Surely it's a reaction to them, not an invention of them.
It depends on your perspective. If a theism developed in a non-theist society then atheism would be a reaction to it, but in a theist society, such as that which existed in Europe in the 16th century, then modern atheism is an invention of those theist thinkers of that time who began to question theism, rather than react against it.
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