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JJLehto View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 29 2010 at 22:02
What is prog?

No seriously.

First true blue prog rock album?
Probably In the Court...


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 30 2010 at 06:53
In my view, among those to be considered as the first full prog album:
  • Fifty Foot Hose 'Cauldron' '68
  • Chrysalis 'Definition' '68
  • Clouds 'Scrapbook' '68
  • The Nice 'Ars Longa Vita Brevis'? (?/Nov '68)
  • East Of Eden 'Mercator Projected' (Dec '68/Feb '69)
  • King Crimson itCotCK (June-Aug/Oct '69)
  • East Of Eden 'Snafu' (June-Sept '69/Feb '70)
  • Renaissance 'Renaissance' (?/Dec '69)
  • Deep Purple 'Concerto For Group And Orchestra' (Sept/Nov '69)
  • The Nice 'Five Bridges' (Oct '69/June '70)
  • White Noise 'An Electric Storm' '69
  • Family 'A Song For Me' (? '69/Jan '70)
  • Jethro Tull 'Benefit' (Dec '69/April '70)


Edited by earlyprog - July 30 2010 at 07:43
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 30 2010 at 07:22
Originally posted by akajazzman akajazzman wrote:

This thread has been very valuable to me for a variety of reasons, but one is Pssros' recommendation of EAST OF EDEN's ''Mercator projected''.    Now that I've heard some of that album, it clearly has something to offer/compete against ITCOTCK.   This is cool stuff.  BUT, did it come out before October 1969?   I can't find that anywhere?
 
Bruce Eder at All Music Guide says " It's also one of the most daring debut albums of its period, less tightly focused than, say, King Crimson's Court of the Crimson King but otherwise equally bold and maybe more challenging. The whole record is eerie — coming from a pop culture where most psychedelic rock tended toward the light and airy — the way the high-impact bass, drum, and guitar parts interact with the distinctly Oriental and Central/Eastern European classical influences. The title track is a surprise coming from any British psychedelic band of the period, opening with a pounding heavy metal beat pumped out on Steve York's bass and Dave Dufort's drums, while Dave Arbus' electric violin subs for what would normally be the rhythm guitar part and Geoff Nicholson's guitar twists a blues riff around before setting a Jimi Hendrix-like wave of tonal pyrotechnics ablaze for the finale. Though most of the rest isn't as hard rocking as that, it is still progressive rock with balls."
 
I may have found my answer, I just need a date. 
 
Also, learned that Fripp (Wakeman, Emerson) were influenced some by watching a band called 1,2,3 (later the Clouds) at the Marquee Club...but my ears tell me, its still more proto-Prog.
 
akajazzman, I have studied this subject, and back in May 2009 I got this answer directly from Geoff Nicholson:
 
Dan 
Mercator Projected was recorded in January 1969 I think. It must have been released in June that year (as I still have some reviews dated that month)
Hope this was of help. 
If you want a lot more information about East of Eden there is a Polish website called pearlsofrock.republika.pl with much more information than I have. 
Geoff Nicholson
 
But I have to add that I think he remembers the date wrongly and have concluded that it was recorded December 1968 and released in February 1969. I think I posted this analysis on PA around May 2009, and you can dig it out if you like.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 30 2010 at 11:59
Earlyprog!  You're a gift from Heaven!    I'm thrilled to hear that the East of Eden came before ITCOTKC.  I've been listening to bits of it, but because of you I just ordered the CD.   I really didn't want to start a debate about "what is Prog" and whatever.  It was basically a simple question.  Most people think of ITCOTKC as the first "Prog" album for a variety of reasons, but in short it involves their virtuosity as a band and individual players, that their jams that are more than just noodling, but composed, and that certain Prog sound that "my" ears can hear.  Doesn't seem that complicated of a question. 
 
I actually do consider early Family, Nice and even Moody Blues as Prog.  But my friend, and many others don't, they put ITCOTCK as the very first in the genre terms as I discussed above.  OK, I can accept that, so, then, within "those" parameters, is there anything that beat ITCOTKC to the punch?  
 
Your list has some very viable options, but  one for sure in my opinion, is East of Eden's Mercator Projected.  
 
Now I win my argument with my friend.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 30 2010 at 16:48
Love - Forever Changes, DaCapo
Velvet Undergroung
Strawberry Alarm Clock
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 31 2010 at 10:54
Back in 68 Steve Miller Band released a record called Children of the future. Up till then they had been playing as a backing band for Chuck Berry. Anyway, the first 5 or 6 songs are in many ways close to the symphonic prog that exploded a couple of years later, albeit for a certain psychedelic flavour that emanates from the vocals. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 31 2010 at 11:26
Originally posted by Guldbamsen Guldbamsen wrote:

Back in 68 Steve Miller Band released a record called Children of the future. Up till then they had been playing as a backing band for Chuck Berry. Anyway, the first 5 or 6 songs are in many ways close to the symphonic prog that exploded a couple of years later, albeit for a certain psychedelic flavour that emanates from the vocals. 

Good call!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 31 2010 at 11:53
I did not know the month that "In the Court of the Crimson King" came out,, but if it was October then most likely Amon Düül beat them to it. even if we dismiss the horrible "Psychedelic Underground" Amon Düül 2's "Phallus Dei" also came out in 1969. And which month did "Sea Shanties" by High Tide come out?


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 31 2010 at 12:06
Knowing both of those other albums, I'm now curious.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 01 2010 at 00:28
Steppenwolf - January 1968
 
I'm not sure it was the first prog album....(probably not).
 
You can't tell me that 'the Pusher' is'nt progressive, tho....I used to scare my mum with this.  LOL
 
 
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 01 2010 at 01:52
Is the point of this to porove / disprove that, sublime as it is KC's ITCOTCK is not the first prog / suymphonic rock album. It may be the best, most consistent and innovative before new Year's Day 1970 but not the first. Trying to get cohesive opinion about this is like trying to find a definition (that all agree upon ) as to what a prog album is.

 I've not heard it but what about Giles Giles and Fripp's album? Pysch pop I think but prog? Spose I should find a review....LOL

 I still go with Days Of Future as the first. Mid 67 and as thematic as you could get. Somewhat dated (60s spoken poetry) occasionally heavenly melodic, nothing scary  ...

well except for until the UK Top Ten Prog Rock Band special hosted by Bill Bailey 'watch out the waiter's on acid..." Ray Thomas' presence...Shocked

cheers
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 01 2010 at 02:31
my point is not to disprove that ITCOTCK is not the first prog album, my point is to show that it makes no sense to ask the question in the first place. there is no such thing as the first prog album

Edited by BaldJean - September 24 2010 at 18:04


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 01 2010 at 04:01
I suggested this as this is not the first time this question has been posited.  Often to push the case of Crismson as the first equals best.

Probably the closest thing to estimate is that there was a tendency for creative musicians in the rock world in 1967 - 1968 to play something more ambitious than 3 chords and the truth (sic.) The only real facts are albums and tours. Smile

It might be interesting to discuss the first if only for such sdiscussion to inform people like me of albums that maybe / are worth hearing/ spending non existent (i.e. credit card ca$h)Pinch despite not knowing of them.

Sort of In Search of The Lost Prog Fix.Geek
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 01 2010 at 04:13
human beings like to categorize. "the lion is a mammal and the crocodile is a reptile". unfortunately things often can't be categorized like that.. there are always borderline cases, in zoology as well as in music. it simply makes no sense to say "this was the first". evolution is a gradual process


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 01 2010 at 13:28
Originally posted by BaldJean BaldJean wrote:

human beings like to categorize. "the lion is a mammal and the crocodile is a reptile". unfortunately things often can't be categorized like that.. there are always borderline cases, in zoology as well as in music. it simply makes no sense to say "this was the first". evolution is a gradual process


Clap Absolutely. I had a Procol Harum "night" last night, and listened to the first three albums all through. Most definitely prog in my opinion, at least as much by the standards by which I understand and enjoy the genre. The difference, I suppose, is I don't really care either for overt categorisation.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 01 2010 at 14:32
Originally posted by BaldJean BaldJean wrote:

human beings like to categorize. "the lion is a mammal and the crocodile is a reptile". unfortunately things often can't be categorized like that.. there are always borderline cases, in zoology as well as in music. it simply makes no sense to say "this was the first". evolution is a gradual process


Yes, exactly, but what is a forum for, if not for the fun of speculation...Wink
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 02 2010 at 21:01
It makes complete sense to ask the question in the first place.  If so many people consider ITCOTKC the first "Prog Rock" album, why not ask the question?  
 
Still, clearly I needed to be a little more precise in my wording, but to deny that there is a certain ground zero factor of ITCOTKC is to fool one's self.  It may not be the first Prog album, if only because of various definitions of "Prog Rock",  but many "do" in fact consider it the "First" of something (i.e. modern Prog Rock).   There's a definate sound and approach to that album that is post-psych, and most certainly "Prog Rock" as most people define the term.  It was also hugely influential on future Prog rockers (including Yes and Genesis, who made their sound more complex after hearing ITCOTKC).
 
BUT, as I was celebrating, I now think East of Eden beat KC to the punch, with their sound.   (call it Prog rock or not).
 
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 02 2010 at 23:12
Train of Thought  Dream Theater
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 03 2010 at 05:34
Originally posted by akajazzman akajazzman wrote:

It makes complete sense to ask the question in the first place.  If so many people consider ITCOTKC the first "Prog Rock" album, why not ask the question?  
 
Still, clearly I needed to be a little more precise in my wording, but to deny that there is a certain ground zero factor of ITCOTKC is to fool one's self.  It may not be the first Prog album, if only because of various definitions of "Prog Rock",  but many "do" in fact consider it the "First" of something (i.e. modern Prog Rock).   There's a definate sound and approach to that album that is post-psych, and most certainly "Prog Rock" as most people define the term.  It was also hugely influential on future Prog rockers (including Yes and Genesis, who made their sound more complex after hearing ITCOTKC).
 
BUT, as I was celebrating, I now think East of Eden beat KC to the punch, with their sound.   (call it Prog rock or not).
 
 
"In the court ..." is first "Progressive" album but it may not  be first "Prog Rock". We dont talk about one song. You try hard to find in late 60's bands to show your friend he/she mistake. BUT you cant find any proggest "album"  than "In the court ...". Maybe you find some "Songs" but you must undrestand philosophy behind "In the court....". This album never "fit" in any genre. You can find many genres in this album and I think this was a long step to introduce "Progressive  music". (IMO)
And one important thing:  You cant call me fool. Never forget that.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 03 2010 at 12:51
Clap  Quite rightly so! Procol Harum´s "In Held Twas in I" is the (very) first progressive composition in rock, recorded in 1968. A powerful and very beautiful epic that J.S. Bach would certainly had been proud of, imho. 1969 saw the release of wonderful "Valentyne Suite" by Colosseum and 1970 the fantastic "Salisbury" by Uriah Heep. All these masterpieces have something very important that many other prog epics lacked: MAGIC, especially "Salisbury" featuring rock´s best guitar solo by Mr.Box and incredibly beautiful singing by Mr. Byron. 
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