Ratings based on progressiveness? - Progressive Rock Music Forum

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SaltyJon

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Posted: August 01 2010 at 16:12

Fieldofsorrow wrote:

harmonium.ro wrote:

The ratings are for "how good it is". For "how progressive it is" there's the review field for anyone to leave their impressions on the matter.

But... the ratings ARE for an album's progressiveness. Combined with quality, of course. Ivan was quite right to make those guidelines so bold and large - no masterpiece of progressive rock can reach such a stature if it isn't prog, surely?! Nor for that matter can it be an excellent addition to a prog rock collection. Confused

That last part especially makes little sense to me - just because an album isn't prog doesn't mean it can't be an excellent addition to a prog rock collection.

I'm with the camp who rates based on overall quality, as opposed to progressive quality. Sure, the progressive quality can play a part, but I don't think it has to for everything.

A Person

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Posted: August 01 2010 at 16:14

Jon I was about to say the same exact thing, the second part of the first sentence was almost exactly the same. Confused

Edited by A Person - August 01 2010 at 16:15

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Posted: August 01 2010 at 16:18

I said in my original post that it's not the be all and end all - far from it! I'm just astounded by the vast majority of people who claim that it should play NO part. I don't want my beliefs confused here - I rate musicality and emotive qualities of music far above innovation - but I don't think it's unreasonable to expect some, when it is so core to the boundary pushing genre that we're dealing with here. Does anyone understand that?

Groovy teenage rock with mild prog tendencies: http://www.myspace.com/omniabsenceband

Raff

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Posted: August 01 2010 at 16:21

You have a whole review at your disposal to explain all these things. I know I used to do it all the time whenever I reviewed a Proto-Prog or Prog-Related album. Having the overall rating of the album suffer because of its real or perceived lack of progressiveness - even when it is a recognized masterpiece (think of Miles Davis' A Kind of Blue, for instance) - is very unfair, and I fully understand why Micah (JLocke) called it childish, as strong as such a word might be.

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Posted: August 01 2010 at 16:48

Fieldofsorrow wrote:

^

An excellent what? An excellent addition to a progressive rock collection, that's what...

Those are generic expressions that designate the fact that PA is concerned with prog... They are not indications for rating on characteristics instead of quality. At least that's we the PA guys (and girls) think, you're free to rate however you like, it's a free site. Wink

DisgruntledPorcupine View Drop Down

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Posted: August 01 2010 at 16:51

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Some thoughts:

Prog is not a label of quality, it's simply a genre.
Now, the guidelines are clear, 5 stars = Essential: a masterpiece of progressive rock music and 4 stas = Excellent addition to any prog rock music collection
A non Prog album may be a masterpiece but never: :
1. A masterpiece of Prog Music or
2. An excellent addition to a Prog Rock Collection
Not because it is bad, but because it's not Prog, a Symphonic Prog album can't be a masterpiece of Jazz Music, and nobiody would even believe this...simply because it's not Jazz

Now, in one case I was particularly harsh, but explained my reasons:

Album: Who's Next

Rating 3 stars

Reason;

No matter how much I love "Who's Next" I'm not sure why am I rating it in a Prog site, I agree it's the quintessential Rock album, a perfect masterpiece and one of my favorite albums of all times, but has absolutely no relation with Prog, but, it's here and it's great so I will review even when I must say in advance that the rating will be unfair for the quality of the music but it's one of the injustice that can happen when a band is placed out of it's natural context.

...

In a Classic Rock or general music site I will give the maximum rating without hesitation, no matter if it's 5, 10 or 20, maybe even an extra one, but in a Prog site my hands are tied, if it had even the slightest Prog relation I would go with 4 stars but that's not the case, so I will go with 3 stars, not without feeling a traitor to one of my all time favorite bands.

Excuse me Pete, Roger and of course Keith and John (wherever you are), but I didn't placed you in this situation.

This is the reason why I fought against the inclusion of The Who, I'm a hardcore fan, but simply I believe they don't belong here.

So, if I want to follow the guidelines, I have do this.

But in no case being an album more Prog than another or having a higher degree of Progressiveness (whatever this means), is an excuse for me, to rate an album higher, all Prog releases s are in the same starting point, what I rate is the music.

Iván

Said it before, and I'll say it again:

Originally posted by DisgruntledPorcupine

DisgruntledPorcupine wrote:

See I never take the ratings system too literally. That means if you're a fan of a band but they have an album you don't like so much, you technically cannot rate that album 2 stars.

And to confuse the matters further, we get this in the rules:

5 - Do not voice general opinions on matters such as whether a band/album/sub-genre should be included in the site, whether you agree with the star rating system, etc.. Such matters should be discussed in the forum. Keep the review pertinent to the specific album concerned. The reviews section is NOT the place for initiating or prolonging a debate.

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Posted: August 01 2010 at 16:52

I won't be rating any album down, Raff, rest assured, because of a lack of progressiveness. I can see why someone might find that childish - that point has been argued strongly, and I agree upon consideration.

But to be honest, it has little to do with what I'm trying to stress here. I would not rate a non-progressive album here at all, because there are albums here that I love even though I don't consider them in fitting with the genre. I agree it would be sorely unfair to rate an album one star when it's clearly a masterpiece - but if it you don't believe it's progressive rock, then why review it here in the first place? I thought we were supposed to guide newcomers through their exploration of the style, highlighting the good and bad alike to give them some insight into what this music is all about.

In my humble opinion, by reviewing albums here that we don't believe even meets their categorisation, it's not actually terribly helpful. There are million other websites to review albums under different terms, but what I love about this place is that there is strong suggestion from the rating system to assess albums from a progressive standpoint.

Apologies to Jon and A Person, we appear to be having a breakdown in communication here. Tongue

I don't understand how a non-prog album can have such a high place in a progressive rock collection.

Groovy teenage rock with mild prog tendencies: http://www.myspace.com/omniabsenceband

A Person

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Posted: August 01 2010 at 16:58

What I mean is that there are albums that I think would be of interest to a prog fan, Kind of Blue is a great example. It's pure jazz, yes, but if a prog fan is looking into JR/F I can't imagine them not being interested in hearing it.

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Posted: August 01 2010 at 16:59

Fieldofsorrow wrote:

I don't understand how a non-prog album can have such a high place in a progressive rock collection.

Yeah we noticed, you have still much to learn LOL

Raff

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Posted: August 01 2010 at 18:37

DisgruntledPorcupine wrote:

See I never take the ratings system too literally. That means if you're a fan of a band but they have an album you don't like so much, you technically cannot rate that album 2 stars.

Not true. I am a huge fan of both Deep Purple and Blue Oyster Cult, yet my only one-star reviews on this site are of albums released by them. The definition for the one-star rating says 'only for completionists', which means those ultra-fans who need to have everything released by their favourite band will want to get the album. You can be a fan, yet be objective.

Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down

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Posted: August 01 2010 at 18:46

SaltyJon wrote:

That last part especially makes little sense to me - just because an album isn't prog doesn't mean it can't be an excellent addition to a prog rock collection.

Oh please, that's a fallacy, a Jazz or Pop or Rap album may be a good addition to:

Any album collection (Like thwt in general terms) or
A Jazz or Pop or Rap collection

It's obvious that a when the site mentions a Prog Rock collection in such an specific way, they are referring to a collection of Prog albums, despite the fact that 99.99% of us have just a music collection of many genres.

But remember, this is a Prog site, I wouldn't rate an album higher than another for being "more Prog", but if an album is absolutely non Prog, I can't rate it with more than 3 stars, and I agree with that, because his is not Allmusic, this is Prog Archives..

Iván

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Posted: August 01 2010 at 19:13

Raff wrote:

DisgruntledPorcupine wrote:

See I never take the ratings system too literally. That means if you're a fan of a band but they have an album you don't like so much, you technically cannot rate that album 2 stars.

I said 2 stars, not one. The 2 star rule says Fans only.

Dean

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Posted: August 01 2010 at 19:56

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Some thoughts:

Prog is not a label of quality, it's simply a genre.
Now, the guidelines are clear, 5 stars = Essential: a masterpiece of progressive rock music and 4 stas = Excellent addition to any prog rock music collection
A non Prog album may be a masterpiece but never: :
1. A masterpiece of Prog Music or
2. An excellent addition to a Prog Rock Collection
Not because it is bad, but because it's not Prog, a Symphonic Prog album can't be a masterpiece of Jazz Music, and nobiody would even believe this...simply because it's not Jazz

Now, in one case I was particularly harsh, but explained my reasons:

Album: Who's Next

Rating 3 stars

Reason;

...

Excuse me Pete, Roger and of course Keith and John (wherever you are), but I didn't placed you in this situation.

This is the reason why I fought against the inclusion of The Who, I'm a hardcore fan, but simply I believe they don't belong here.

So, if I want to follow the guidelines, I have do this.

Iván

I dispair sometimes, I really do.

For albums of artists in Proto Prog (and Prog Related) you don't have to rate them as Progressive Rock albums - because by definition they are not Progressive Rock albums - that's the whole point of those two categories.

If you bothered to look at the text under the star-rating for The Who's "Who's Next" you would have seen these words:

4.22 | 97 ratings | 36 reviews | 55% 5 stars

Excellent addition to any
rock music collection

Note that it says "any rock music collection", not "any prog rock music collection"

Similarily, if you look at Led Zepp IV you'll see it says:

4.28 | 190 ratings | 66 reviews | 53% 5 stars

Essential: a masterpiece of
rock music

It does not say - Essential: a masterpiece of progressive rock music.

So, you don't have to dock points because a Prog Related album isn't Prog.

Of course you can if you want, that's your choice, but no one is forcing you.

Edited by Dean - August 01 2010 at 19:58

What?

Chris S

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Posted: August 01 2010 at 20:44

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

SaltyJon wrote:

That last part especially makes little sense to me - just because an album isn't prog doesn't mean it can't be an excellent addition to a prog rock collection.

Oh please, that's a fallacy, a Jazz or Pop or Rap album may be a good addition to:

Any album collection (Like thwt in general terms) or
A Jazz or Pop or Rap collection

Iván

Sorry Ivan I think that is just plain rediculous

It's like getting a coffee from Dunkin Donuts and refusing to say it's good cos you are in a Donut shop

Edited by Chris S - August 01 2010 at 20:45

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Chris S

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Posted: August 01 2010 at 20:47

Dean wrote:

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Some thoughts:

Prog is not a label of quality, it's simply a genre.
Now, the guidelines are clear, 5 stars = Essential: a masterpiece of progressive rock music and 4 stas = Excellent addition to any prog rock music collection
A non Prog album may be a masterpiece but never: :
1. A masterpiece of Prog Music or
2. An excellent addition to a Prog Rock Collection
Not because it is bad, but because it's not Prog, a Symphonic Prog album can't be a masterpiece of Jazz Music, and nobiody would even believe this...simply because it's not Jazz

Now, in one case I was particularly harsh, but explained my reasons:

Album: Who's Next

Rating 3 stars

Reason;

...

Excuse me Pete, Roger and of course Keith and John (wherever you are), but I didn't placed you in this situation.

This is the reason why I fought against the inclusion of The Who, I'm a hardcore fan, but simply I believe they don't belong here.

So, if I want to follow the guidelines, I have do this.

Iván

I dispair sometimes, I really do.

If you bothered to look at the text under the star-rating for The Who's "Who's Next" you would have seen these words:

4.22 | 97 ratings | 36 reviews | 55% 5 stars

Excellent addition to any
rock music collection

Note that it says "any rock music collection", not "any prog rock music collection"

Similarily, if you look at Led Zepp IV you'll see it says:

4.28 | 190 ratings | 66 reviews | 53% 5 stars

Essential: a masterpiece of
rock music

It does not say - Essential: a masterpiece of progressive rock music.

So, you don't have to dock points because a Prog Related album isn't Prog.

Of course you can if you want, that's your choice, but no one is forcing you.

Again some people would argue that some LZ is progressive

but i agree with your point

Edited by Chris S - August 01 2010 at 20:48

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Posted: August 01 2010 at 20:58

^not only Zep, Queen, Sabbath et al.

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Posted: August 01 2010 at 20:59

Dean wrote:

If you bothered to look at the text under the star-rating for The Who's "Who's Next" you would have seen these words:

4.22 | 97 ratings | 36 reviews | 55% 5 stars

Excellent addition to any
rock music collection

Note that it says "any rock music collection", not "any prog rock music collection"

Dean, that's a recent patch, but anyway, this is what is poisted iin the rating:

5 stars : Essential: a masterpiece of progressive rock music

4 Stars: Excellent addition to any prog rock music collection

http://www.progarchives.com/album.asp?id=16064

If I mark any of those two, I would be supporting something I always denied, The Who shouldn't be here at all(IMO of course)

The day I can read in the stars rating Rock and not Prog, I will change my ratings.

BTW: This patch wasn't there in 2007 when I wrote my review.

BTW II: If you check STYX - The Grand Illusion, you will see I rated it with 5 stars, because IMO has many Prog elements, The Who not.

Even when I would buy any The Who album before any STYX album.

Iván

Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - August 01 2010 at 21:00

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Posted: August 01 2010 at 21:08

Chris S wrote:

Sorry Ivan I think that is just plain rediculous

It's like getting a coffee from Dunkin Donuts and refusing to say it's good cos you are in a Donut shop

No, your example is a fallacy:

If somebody asked me "How good is this cofee?", I would answer good or bad depending of my taste and without caring where it was made.
IIf somebody asks me "How good is this Starbucks Coffee?" and gives me a "Dunkin Doughnuts coffee", I would say....Hey this is not a Starbucks Coffee, it tastes better than a Starbucks coffee, but I can't rate it as a Starbuks Cofee because IT'S NOT MADE IN STARBUCKS.
In PA, somebody asks me How good is this Prog album?...I reply It's great, excellent, a masterpiece (As I wrote on my review) BUT IT'S NOT A PROG ALBUM

They asked me is Who's Next a Prog masterpiece?...I have to answer, no because it's not a Prog album...If they had asked me how good is Who's Next..I would reply, fantastic and perfecr masterpiece.

Do you get the difference?

Iván

Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - August 01 2010 at 21:11

Chris S

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Posted: August 01 2010 at 21:18

^ Ivan I have learn't along time ago not to debate with a lawyer

No matter what rationale you put behind it IMO your reason to maximum rate a non prog album a 3 on a Progressive music site is plain rediculous

Let us agree to disagree or disagree to agree

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Posted: August 01 2010 at 21:29

Chris S wrote:

^ Ivan I have learn't along time ago not to debate with a lawyer

No matter what rationale you put behind it IMO your reason to maximum rate a non prog album a 3 on a Progressive music site is plain rediculous

Let us agree to disagree or disagree to agree

Please understand me

The question is Is Who's Next a Prog Masterpiede?..... I answer: It's a masterpiece BUT IT'S NOT A PROG MASTERPIECE because IT'S NOT PROG

Just think if somebody asks you Is Pele a Basaketball star?... You have to answer No he's not, he's a Football or Sports star but never a basketball star.

The second question is: Is Who's Next a great addition for a PROG collection?...I answer: It's a great addition for a MUSIC or ROCK collection, but not necesarilly for a Progressive Rock Collectio, because I don't know if every Prog fan will like it.

With the same example: If somebody asks you "Wuld you believe Pele is a candidate for the Basketball Hall of Fame...You have to answer: No way!!!!!!

No matter if you consider he's the best sportsman ever, he doesn't play basket, in the same way The Who doesn't play Prog.

SIMPLE.

Iván