For my Libertarian friends

Equality 7-2521 wrote: JJLehto wrote: Equality 7-2521 wrote: I'm not really sure of my stance anymore honestly.  How so? Obviously none of us want illegal immigrants, you are not sure on how it should be dealt with? The AZ law specifically? I'm not so sure I agree with a government barring people from entering its borders. I'm quite torn on the issue. I used to be so fervently against it, but now it eats away in the back of my mind. I feel there's so inconsistency in my view. I've been meaning to sit down and think about it for a few hours, but I've been busy and scatterbrained recently.

One of the big issues though is illegal immigrants coming here and having children.  The parents are illegal but the children are citizens by birth.  That creates a big disparity in tax burden / tax benefits, especially at the local level and especially if the parents are paid under the table (as many of them are).

And that creates a sh*tty situation no matter how you look at it.

Equality 7-2521 wrote: JJLehto wrote: Equality 7-2521 wrote: I'm not really sure of my stance anymore honestly.  How so? Obviously none of us want illegal immigrants, you are not sure on how it should be dealt with? The AZ law specifically? I'm not so sure I agree with a government barring people from entering its borders. I'm quite torn on the issue. I used to be so fervently against it, but now it eats away in the back of my mind. I feel there's so inconsistency in my view. I've been meaning to sit down and think about it for a few hours, but I've been busy and scatterbrained recently.

The T wrote: The ID solution is general and could work, though wouldn't the requirement to carry a document another intrusion of government in our lives?

Not at all.  We already carry IDs or licenses (most of us), and so this simplifies the process.  The government has a responsibility to ensure our borders are protected and that people aren't here illegally.  I think this is an incredibly simple solution to the issue.

Of course, people would still protest it, but there's an obvious reason for that.

I should run Arizona. 

JJLehto wrote: No disagreements at all. But what can be done? This is not exactly possible....but it would be nice if Mexico could maybe enforce more on their side. A border is 2 sided of course. And doesn't Mexico have very strict illegal, and legal, immigration laws? The irony of it all! It is really a hell of a mess this whole illegal immigration thing

thellama73 wrote: The T wrote: What should be changed is the fact that these laws target the illegals but they should also focus on the people who hire them... Not only do they pay them miserably and encourage illegal immigration, but without jobs to come to, many people simply wouldn't come.  I totally agree with this. The companies are the problem, because if there are no jobs for illegals they will no incentive to come here. One solution I heard that I quite liked was to allow illegal immigrants to sue employers for violating minimum wage laws without the threat of deportation. That would cause the jobs to dry up pretty quickly. The T wrote: The ID solution is general and could work, though wouldn't the requirement to carry a document another intrusion of government in our lives?  I too am very troubled at the thought of a mandatory government ID.

YES! I always thought there needs to be some way to deter from hiring illegals in the first place.
Obviously yall would scoff at the idea of regulation, but that idea you mention is pretty intriguing.

And I knew the ID thing would be a bit of an issue in here.

Epignosis wrote: thellama73 wrote: The T wrote: The ID solution is general and could work, though wouldn't the requirement to carry a document another intrusion of government in our lives?  I too am very troubled at the thought of a mandatory government ID. Be troubled if you must, but I see such IDs as minimally invasive, to be honest.  And so far I think I'm only person here so far who has offered a feasible solution to a big problem.

What about the one I mentioned where illegals can sue their employers?

JJLehto wrote: thellama73 wrote: The T wrote: What should be changed is the fact that these laws target the illegals but they should also focus on the people who hire them... Not only do they pay them miserably and encourage illegal immigration, but without jobs to come to, many people simply wouldn't come.  I totally agree with this. The companies are the problem, because if there are no jobs for illegals they will no incentive to come here. One solution I heard that I quite liked was to allow illegal immigrants to sue employers for violating minimum wage laws without the threat of deportation. That would cause the jobs to dry up pretty quickly. The T wrote: The ID solution is general and could work, though wouldn't the requirement to carry a document another intrusion of government in our lives?  I too am very troubled at the thought of a mandatory government ID. YES! I always thought there needs to be some way to deter from hiring illegals in the first place. Obviously yall would scoff at the idea of regulation, but that idea you mention is pretty intriguing. And I knew the ID thing would be a bit of an issue in here.

The fact that I want deregulation of industry does not mean that I think companies should be able to break every law, such as fraud, theft and murder.

Epignosis wrote: thellama73 wrote: The T wrote: The ID solution is general and could work, though wouldn't the requirement to carry a document another intrusion of government in our lives?  I too am very troubled at the thought of a mandatory government ID. Be troubled if you must, but I see such IDs as minimally invasive, to be honest.  And so far I think I'm only person here so far who has offered a feasible solution to a big problem.

Honestly, I never had a "real" solution to the problem that was realistic.

Like I said, some of the people in here are pretty idealistic, I also don't see an ID verifying you're a citizen (it doesnt need ALL your info on there) as intrusive. Its really just an ideological thing.
But I do see it leading it to profiling. Sadly, I am certain it would.


I actually like Llama's idea I have said we need to crackdown and those that hire illegals. And I'd support a non governmental/regulation solution.
EDIT: Ah Rob beat me to it.....
I was going to say, I don't know if that will actually solve the issue. And they already are coming here illegally, would they, or most people (?) want to go through the courts?
If I came here illegally I'd probably just accept it and take my low under the table pay, even though I know Im making far too little.
Working people all want the same, to provide for themselves and their family, and I dont think they like to rock the boat, especially if thats getting accomplished.




Edited by JJLehto - July 29 2010 at 14:09

There's the slippery slope....
OK, I wont bring up the paranoia/fear thing...but yeah

And what about those that are here? Should they all be deported? Sent back "in line"? Allowed to stay?
The idea of amnesty is unpleasant, but I dont think ALL can be sent back. Some have families, with legal children.

Sorry, I am liberal. Ive cried out all the tears I have man.
So you do support sending them all back? I'm fine with deportation, they did break the law after all.
But even send back kids who are legal US citizens?