For my Libertarian friends

Equality 7-2521 wrote: That may hold water if there weren't so many educated people from the time striking down those horrible fallacies.

Well not ALL people are rigid, unmovable rocks!

I really dont care to get into total irrelevant BS, but you cant really fault people for beliefs they had during the time.
If you lived from 1880 to 1950 even though it may not justify racism, eugenics etc it is what they knew.
Someone who was born  in 1920 would live through the civil rights era, and past it. We can change our mindsets.
And couldn't you say our people of our generation who DON'T hold such beliefs are because we were raised with it? (These are generalities)
I think its silly to deny we are products of environment, overall.
EDIT: And NO! Hitler was a nutcase. Those do exist as well. So dont give me "ok cool so hitler was ok, he was just a product of the time!"


Lets get back to why the government is evil now





Edited by JJLehto - July 22 2010 at 19:51

stonebeard wrote: Epignosis wrote: stonebeard wrote: I also find it needlessly harsh to condemn people in that era for believing in eugenics, or at least entertaining the idea. What do you expect in the decades after Darwinism? Many educated people were vehement racists and eugenics played into that. it's expecting too much out of the people from that time. So Hitler was just a product of his times?  Got it. A belief is a belief. I don't give a sh*t about whoever's beliefs. What the hell is it to anyone else if a reporter corners a guy and asks him about eugenics or some guy waxes philosophically about racism in his diary? No one's perfect, and holding idle beliefs mean next to nothing when compared to actions. Granted, Roosevelt was imperialistic and jingoistic, so that taints his legacy a bit. I'm fairly sure Hitler's actions matter more than the words of some piddling racist somewhere.

Except that beliefs aren't breakfast cereals.

A person's fundamental beliefs determine how that person interacts with society, and in the case of politicians, how they lead.  And therefore, beliefs turn into actions.

Hitler wasn't a nut who happened to have evil beliefs.  He was a nut because he had evil beliefs.

Epignosis wrote: stonebeard wrote: Epignosis wrote: stonebeard wrote: I also find it needlessly harsh to condemn people in that era for believing in eugenics, or at least entertaining the idea. What do you expect in the decades after Darwinism? Many educated people were vehement racists and eugenics played into that. it's expecting too much out of the people from that time. So Hitler was just a product of his times?  Got it. A belief is a belief. I don't give a sh*t about whoever's beliefs. What the hell is it to anyone else if a reporter corners a guy and asks him about eugenics or some guy waxes philosophically about racism in his diary? No one's perfect, and holding idle beliefs mean next to nothing when compared to actions. Granted, Roosevelt was imperialistic and jingoistic, so that taints his legacy a bit. I'm fairly sure Hitler's actions matter more than the words of some piddling racist somewhere. Except that beliefs aren't breakfast cereals. A person's fundamental beliefs determine how that person interacts with society, and in the case of politicians, how they lead.  And therefore, beliefs turn into actions. Hitler wasn't a nut who happened to have evil beliefs.  He was a nut because he had evil beliefs.

If you're going to continue making the comparison, then fine. Because of his beliefs, your common eugenicist would possibly avoid racial ghettos and give a cold reception to other races when forced to deal with them. Whoopity do. He's not going to become a scientist and engineer a plague to kill a race of people. And he's not going to become chancellor of Germany and order the deaths of 6 million people. Those are aberrations. Most racists and eugenicists are not going to do anything, even close to what Hitler did, so damning them for the belief means practically nothing.

Man, sometime I just get sick of debate 
How'd we get here anyway? I dont disagree with any of that, not sure what there is to argue about?
That woman you mentioned Rob is crazy.

generally, I do think the human race has progressed leaps, and a long way is still to go.
In the end we are individual humans, and that is what ultimately it does lie with.
And I hope that woman does not ever become President, Governor, a Congresswoman or on the local school board.

As I said, we have progressed. Those actions though unjustifiable back then, were more acceptable. I HOPE most people today would think that woman crazy. Philosophy aside, that woman is sick. Strangle your kids with wire? Belief or not, something is very wrong with her. Crazy is crazy.




Edited by JJLehto - July 22 2010 at 20:23

Epignosis wrote: Wow.  Hmm.  Okay, here we go. 1. You don't know most racists and eugenicists, especially not well enough to say what they are not going to do. 2. Most racists and eugenicists lack the power to act on the scale that Hitler did.  Sensible people will try to keep it that way. 3. If a man believes little boys are sexy, then I won't be putting him in charge of watching my son.

1. Fine then. I use my enhanced common sense to dictate most people with at least vague racist/eugenicist feelings won't act more than I said on them. Getting hung up on the word "know" is so far beside the point.

2. Even given absolute power, I seriously doubt most of these people would do harm to others. For most but the insane aberrations, killing, sterilizing, and insitutionalizing racism is serious business. It's curious that you imply giving someone absolute power means they will automatically dictate whatever they believe personally on the populace though.

3. That's your prerogative. It's also beside the point.

This is the libertarian thread, not the....philosophical/eugenics thread?

Sadly, I am leaving for now. So feel free to carry on I suppose.
When I return though I will be larger than the government, and you wont be able to tame me.

Equality 7-2521 wrote: stonebeard wrote: Epignosis wrote: stonebeard wrote: Epignosis wrote: stonebeard wrote: I also find it needlessly harsh to condemn people in that era for believing in eugenics, or at least entertaining the idea. What do you expect in the decades after Darwinism? Many educated people were vehement racists and eugenics played into that. it's expecting too much out of the people from that time. So Hitler was just a product of his times?  Got it. A belief is a belief. I don't give a sh*t about whoever's beliefs. What the hell is it to anyone else if a reporter corners a guy and asks him about eugenics or some guy waxes philosophically about racism in his diary? No one's perfect, and holding idle beliefs mean next to nothing when compared to actions. Granted, Roosevelt was imperialistic and jingoistic, so that taints his legacy a bit. I'm fairly sure Hitler's actions matter more than the words of some piddling racist somewhere. Except that beliefs aren't breakfast cereals. A person's fundamental beliefs determine how that person interacts with society, and in the case of politicians, how they lead.  And therefore, beliefs turn into actions. Hitler wasn't a nut who happened to have evil beliefs.  He was a nut because he had evil beliefs. If you're going to continue making the comparison, then fine. Because of his beliefs, your common eugenicist would possibly avoid racial ghettos and give a cold reception to other races when forced to deal with them. Whoopity do. He's not going to become a scientist and engineer a plague to kill a race of people. And he's not going to become chancellor of Germany and order the deaths of 6 million people. Those are aberrations. Most racists and eugenicists are not going to do anything, even close to what Hitler did, so damning them for the belief means practically nothing. You seem to know little about the Eugenics movement.

You're right on that one. I'm trying to think of how a modern person who happened to believe in eugenics with about the same intensity of a garden variety racist (which is to say, largely just idle mumbling about how other races are inferior, not curb-stompingly awful).

But you should know if you're planning on taking an internet debate with me seriously is that I talk out of my ass about history, have irrational beliefs, don't really give a sh*t about researching whatever the hell I'm riffing about, and generally don't get affected by any of this nonsense anymore.

I'll probably keep at this, but at least you all should know none of this is serious business for me.

Epignosis wrote: stonebeard wrote: Epignosis wrote: Wow.  Hmm.  Okay, here we go. 1. You don't know most racists and eugenicists, especially not well enough to say what they are not going to do. 2. Most racists and eugenicists lack the power to act on the scale that Hitler did.  Sensible people will try to keep it that way. 3. If a man believes little boys are sexy, then I won't be putting him in charge of watching my son. 1. Fine then. I use my enhanced common sense to dictate most people with at least vague racist/eugenicist feelings won't act more than I said on them. Getting hung up on the word "know" is so far beside the point. 2. Even given absolute power, I seriously doubt most of these people would do harm to others. For most but the insane aberrations, killing, sterilizing, and insitutionalizing racism is serious business. It's curious that you imply giving someone absolute power means they will automatically dictate whatever they believe personally on the populace though. 3. That's your prerogative. It's also beside the point. You seem to have missed my analogy on #3, but okay.

Not really. It might be better to err on the side of caution for things that really matter (the presidency, your kid), but in the end it's all about actions, not thoughts.

Epignosis wrote: Interesting.

Not to me.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compulsory_sterilization

JJLehto wrote: Man, sometime I just get sick of debate  How'd we get here anyway?

A certain someone asked us which Presidents we liked...which quite naturally led to a discussion of those we don't...and why.