Forum Home Forum Home > Topics not related to music > General discussions
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Theism vs. Atheism ... will it ever be settled?
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Topic ClosedTheism vs. Atheism ... will it ever be settled?

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 4142434445 174>
Author
Message
The T View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 17493
Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 21 2010 at 14:13
^That last one sounds more reasonable... 
Back to Top
Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator

Honorary Collaborator

Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19557
Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 21 2010 at 14:15
Originally posted by Mr ProgFreak Mr ProgFreak wrote:



 
He believes he's making mockery of our faith, but he isn't, because he's signing a piece of bread, being that before the consecration it's only bread.

I ate a lot of this in school, the ones that had a defect were never consecrated and it's only bread.

Iván

            
Back to Top
Mr ProgFreak View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: November 08 2008
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 5195
Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 21 2010 at 14:16
As far as I know these wafers were consecrated and then "abducted". That was the whole point of it all, to show that consecrated wafers are ... still just wafers.
Back to Top
Slartibartfast View Drop Down
Collaborator
Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam

Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
Status: Offline
Points: 29630
Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 21 2010 at 14:28
Originally posted by Mr ProgFreak Mr ProgFreak wrote:

As far as I know these wafers were consecrated and then "abducted". That was the whole point of it all, to show that consecrated wafers are ... still just wafers.

And they're wafer thin...
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...

Back to Top
timothy leary View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: December 29 2005
Location: Lilliwaup, Wa.
Status: Offline
Points: 5319
Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 21 2010 at 14:34

“The Mithraic Holy Father wore a red cap and garment and a ring, and carried a shepherd’s staff. The Head Christian adopted the same title and outfitted himself in the same manner. Christian priests, like Mithraic priests, became ‘Father’, despite Jesus’ specific proscription of the acceptance of such a title (Matthew 23:9). That Jesus had been repudiating, not the Mithraists with whom he was unfamiliar, but the Sanhedrin, whose President was styled Father, is hardly relevant.

“Mithra’s bishops wore a mithra, or miter, as their badge of office. Christian bishops also adopted miters. Mithraists commemorated the sun-god’s ascension by eating a mizd, a sun-shaped bun embossed with the sword (cross) of Mithra. The hot cross bun and the mass were likewise adapted to Christianity. The Roman Catholic mizd/mass wafer continues to retain its sun-shape, although its Episcopal counterpart does not. “All Roman Emperors from Julius Caesar to Gratian had been pontifex maximus, high priest of the Roman gods. When Theodosius refused the title as incompatible with his status as a Christian, the Christian bishop of Rome picked it up. Magi, priests of Zarathustra, wore robes that featured the sword of Mithra. Identical robes are worn by Christian priests to this day.”

Back to Top
Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator

Honorary Collaborator

Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19557
Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 21 2010 at 14:59
Originally posted by Mr ProgFreak Mr ProgFreak wrote:

As far as I know these wafers were consecrated and then "abducted". That was the whole point of it all, to show that consecrated wafers are ... still just wafers.
 
Then it's worst, the lack of morality of stealing something that is holy for some of us and then signing it in a sign of approval.
 
I beliebve this says a lot of the morality of some atheists, I wouldn't steal a Torah or an Islamic symbol, because stealing is wrong.
 
Iván
            
Back to Top
Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator

Honorary Collaborator

Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19557
Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 21 2010 at 15:07
Originally posted by timothy leary timothy leary wrote:

“The Mithraic Holy Father wore a red cap and garment and a ring, and carried a shepherd’s staff. The Head Christian adopted the same title and outfitted himself in the same manner. Christian priests, like Mithraic priests, became ‘Father’, despite Jesus’ specific proscription of the acceptance of such a title (Matthew 23:9). That Jesus had been repudiating, not the Mithraists with whom he was unfamiliar, but the Sanhedrin, whose President was styled Father, is hardly relevant.

“Mithra’s bishops wore a mithra, or miter, as their badge of office. Christian bishops also adopted miters. Mithraists commemorated the sun-god’s ascension by eating a mizd, a sun-shaped bun embossed with the sword (cross) of Mithra. The hot cross bun and the mass were likewise adapted to Christianity. The Roman Catholic mizd/mass wafer continues to retain its sun-shape, although its Episcopal counterpart does not. “All Roman Emperors from Julius Caesar to Gratian had been pontifex maximus, high priest of the Roman gods. When Theodosius refused the title as incompatible with his status as a Christian, the Christian bishop of Rome picked it up. Magi, priests of Zarathustra, wore robes that featured the sword of Mithra. Identical robes are worn by Christian priests to this day.”

 
 
I believe you are staying in the external symbols rather than in the doctrine
 
The explanation of the term father
 
Quote To understand why the charge does not work, one must first understand the use of the word "father" in reference to our earthly fathers. No one would deny a little girl the opportunity to tell someone that she loves her father. Common sense tells us that Jesus wasn’t forbidding this type of use of the word "father."

In fact, to forbid it would rob the address "Father" of its meaning when applied to God, for there would no longer be any earthly counterpart for the analogy of divine Fatherhood. The concept of God’s role as Father would be meaningless if we obliterated the concept of earthly fatherhood.

But in the Bible the concept of fatherhood is not restricted to just our earthly fathers and God. It is used to refer to people other than biological or legal fathers, and is used as a sign of respect to those with whom we have a special relationship.

For example, Joseph tells his brothers of a special fatherly relationship God had given him with the king of Egypt: "So it was not you who sent me here, but God; and he has made me a father to Pharaoh, and lord of all his house and ruler over all the land of Egypt" (Gen. 45:8).

Job indicates he played a fatherly role with the less fortunate: "I was a father to the poor, and I searched out the cause of him whom I did not know" (Job 29:16). And God himself declares that he will give a fatherly role to Eliakim, the steward of the house of David: "In that day I will call my servant Eliakim, the son of Hilkiah . . . and I will clothe him with [a] robe, and will bind [a] girdle on him, and will commit . . . authority to his hand; and he shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem and to the house of Judah" (Is. 22:20–21).

This type of fatherhood not only applies to those who are wise counselors (like Joseph) or benefactors (like Job) or both (like Eliakim), it also applies to those who have a fatherly spiritual relationship with one. For example, Elisha cries, "My father, my father!" to Elijah as the latter is carried up to heaven in a whirlwind (2 Kgs. 2:12). Later, Elisha himself is called a father by the king of Israel (2 Kgs. 6:21).
 
Haven't you ever caled your dad "Father"? I believe he is or was a man.
 
About the so called mithra:
 
Quote

A similarity between Mithra and Christ struck even early observers, such as Justin, Tertullian, and other Fathers, and in recent times has been urged to prove that Christianity is but an adaptation of Mithraism, or at most the outcome of the same religious ideas and aspirations (e.g. Robertson, "Pagan Christs", 1903). Against this erroneous and unscientific procedure, which is not endorsed by the greatest living authority on Mithraism, the following considerations must be brought forward.

(1) Our knowledge regarding Mithraism is very imperfect; some 600 brief inscriptions, mostly dedicatory, some 300 often fragmentary, exiguous, almost identical monuments, a few casual references in the Fathers or Acts of the Martyrs, and a brief polemic against Mithraism which the Armenian Eznig about 450 probably copied from Theodore of Mopsuestia (d. 428) who lived when Mithraism was almost a thing of the past — these are our only sources, unless we include the Avesta in which Mithra is indeed mentioned, but which cannot be an authority for Roman Mithraism with which Christianity is compared. Our knowledge is mostly ingenious guess-work; of the real inner working of Mithraism and the sense in which it was understood by those who professed it at the advent of Christianity, we know nothing.

(2) Some apparent similarities exist; but in a number of details it is quite probable that Mithraism was the borrower from Christianity. Tertullian about 200 could say: "hesterni sumus et omnia vestra implevimus" ("we are but of yesterday, yet your whole world is full of us"). It is not unnatural to suppose that a religion which filled the whole world, should have been copied at least in some details by another religion which was quite popular during the third century. Moreover the resemblances pointed out are superficial and external. Similarity in words and names is nothing; it is the sense that matters. During these centuries Christianity was coining its own technical terms, and naturally took names, terms, and expressions current in that day; and so did Mithraism. But under identical terms each system thought its own thoughts. Mithra is called a mediator; and so is Christ; but Mithra originally only in a cosmogonic or astronomical sense; Christ, being God and man, is by nature the Mediator between God and man. And so in similar instances. Mithraism had a Eucharist, but the idea of a sacred banquet is as old as the human race and existed at all ages and amongst all peoples. Mithra saved the world by sacrificing a bull; Christ by sacrificing Himself. It is hardly possible to conceive a more radical difference than that between Mithra taurochtonos and Christ crucified. Christ was born of a Virgin; there is nothing to prove that the same was believed of Mithra born from the rock. Christ was born in a cave; and Mithraists worshipped in a cave, but Mithra was born under a tree near a river. Much as been made of the presence of adoring shepherds; but their existence on sculptures has not been proven, and considering that man had not yet appeared, it is an anachronism to suppose their presence.

(3) Christ was an historical personage, recently born in a well-known town of Judea, and crucified under a Roman governor, whose name figured in the ordinary official lists. Mithra was an abstraction, a personification not even of the sun but of the diffused daylight; his incarnation, if such it may be called, was supposed to have happened before the creation of the human race, before all history. The small Mithraic congregations were like masonic lodges for a few and for men only and even those mostly of one class, the military; a religion that excludes the half of the human race bears no comparison to the religion of Christ. Mithraism was all comprehensive and tolerant of every other cult, the Pater Patrum himself was an adept in a number of other religions; Christianity was essential exclusive, condemning every other religion in the world, alone and unique in its majesty.

 
Read it and believe it if you want, I'm too tired to explain.
 
Iván
            
Back to Top
Mr ProgFreak View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: November 08 2008
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 5195
Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 21 2010 at 15:38
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Originally posted by Mr ProgFreak Mr ProgFreak wrote:

As far as I know these wafers were consecrated and then "abducted". That was the whole point of it all, to show that consecrated wafers are ... still just wafers.
 
Then it's worst, the lack of morality of stealing something that is holy for some of us and then signing it in a sign of approval.
 
I beliebve this says a lot of the morality of some atheists, I wouldn't steal a Torah or an Islamic symbol, because stealing is wrong.
 
Iván


Who said anything about stealing them? If I'm a Catholic and get such a wafer and then take it with me instead of eating it ... what would be wrong with that?

And if you watched the second video you'd see that Matt got himself ordained over the internet and consecrated the wafers himself, live, during the show.LOL
Back to Top
The T View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 17493
Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 21 2010 at 15:40
The first video lacked class Mike, it's evident. 

I see the point though. As I was saying, even though it has a symbolic factor to it, the whole "drinking the blood" of a man sounds too.... much like my avatar to me Tongue
Back to Top
Trademark View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: November 21 2006
Location: oHIo
Status: Offline
Points: 1009
Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 21 2010 at 15:51
I think Dawkins must be related to that smug, self-satisfied b*****d who makes the vacuum cleaners.  Ah well, there ARE some advantages to being one's own biggest fan.

I'm spearheading a move to do away with those awful dry communion wafers and replace them with sweet delicious Necco Wafers.  Surprisingly, I'm not getting very far with it.

Seriously, though when my kids were little we used to take a lot of long car rides and they always wanted Necco Wafers to snack on.  My daughter recently admitted that she liked to pretend she was taking communion with Necco Wafers and 7-Up in the back seat of the car.  Laughed about that for a long time.

Being protestant, we can just tear up any old loaf of bread.
Back to Top
Icarium View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar
VIP Member

Joined: March 21 2008
Location: Tigerstaden
Status: Offline
Points: 34076
Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 21 2010 at 16:01

let just bring another guy to the debate, Bill Maher he so much funnier then Dawkins, and don't talk as much as Hitchens, im just saying that im not atheist (yet), I have a christian confirmation and stil part of the state church, and I think the Bible is an ethicly rich book of texts that are too important to  be ignored  just as any other ainchant texts, like Epic of Gilgamesh, the greek Epos, Heimskringla and the Viking  Kings saga,
I like the principles of Jesus life and sacrefice, he was one man against the Roman Empire the most powerfull empire of the earth (that time), and he was brave to opose them, just like Ghandi oposed the British Empire, Martin Luther King opposed the you know what, and Nelson Mandela opposed the Apparteid.


Edited by aginor - July 21 2010 at 16:12
Back to Top
Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator

Honorary Collaborator

Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19557
Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 21 2010 at 16:05
Originally posted by Mr ProgFreak Mr ProgFreak wrote:



Who said anything about stealing them? If I'm a Catholic and get such a wafer and then take it with me instead of eating it ... what would be wrong with that?

And if you watched the second video you'd see that Matt got himself ordained over the internet and consecrated the wafers himself, live, during the show.LOL
 
Thanks Mike for making me see the second video and I'll say it's púre BS.
 
That guy is no Catholic Priest at all, he got ordained by a pseudo Church called "Universal Life Church", who's justification is this:
 
Quote The Universal Life Church believes that all faiths are best served by the freedom and choice to become ordained online. This includes the freedom to perform weddings, baptisms or funerals for friends and family, regardless of your spiritual or religious denomination. We believe that you have the right to worship your God without intolerance or antiquated religious dogma. We appeal to a worldwide audience through our online church services, such as:
 
They later say:
 
]Once you become a pastor, minister, rabbi or priest, you can proceed to perform baptisms, administer traditional weddings and even start your own ministry. ULC can support you with an array of online church services including ministerial training, spiritual books and guides, and many other resources.
 

This guys can't ordain a Priest  more than I can ordain you a Rabbi, as a fact a Priest requires of years of studies and be ordained by a Catholic Bishop, not by a businessman who is making a fraud, because he doedsn't have any authority.
 
Even more, no priest can be ordaiined by Internet, it's agaionst our beliefs.
 
It's such a scam that Detective Bruce Walstead apparently from the Franklin Park Police Department, got a certificate for his Dog Fuzzy who was ordained Minister LOLLOLLOLLOL LOL And this guys made the certificate.
 
The fact is that people who are scammed by Internet, never become  a Catholic Priest, a Jewish Rabi or a Protestant Pastor, so whatever acts they perform are just nothing.
 
So back to my first post. this is a piece on non consecrate bread that means nothing for us.
 
Iván
 
 
 
 


Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - July 21 2010 at 16:17
            
Back to Top
Mr ProgFreak View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: November 08 2008
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 5195
Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 21 2010 at 16:45
^ Well, ordained or not, consecrated or not ... wafers they were, and wafers they remain. I'm relieved though that the video didn't totally upset you.Smile
Back to Top
Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator

Honorary Collaborator

Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19557
Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 21 2010 at 16:50
Originally posted by Mr ProgFreak Mr ProgFreak wrote:

^ Well, ordained or not, consecrated or not ... wafers they were, and wafers they remain. I'm relieved though that the video didn't totally upset you.Smile
 
The video only reveals the ignorance of some people:
  1. A guy who believs he can be ordained priest by mail, is a perfect idiot.
  2. A guy who believes he can coonsecrate a host by the power invested by Internet is twice an idiot
  3. A guy who claims we believe that a host turns into flesh .ad meat, is an ignorant, the eklements remain intact, the precense is spiritual.
  4. A guy whjo insults other people's beliefs is simply an inseccure jerk.

So no, it doesn't affect me, idiots don't bother me.

Iván
 
            
Back to Top
Mr ProgFreak View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: November 08 2008
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 5195
Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 21 2010 at 16:57
Originally posted by aginor aginor wrote:

let just bring another guy to the debate, Bill Maher he so much funnier then Dawkins, and don't talk as much as Hitchens, im just saying that im not atheist (yet), I have a christian confirmation and stil part of the state church, and I think the Bible is an ethicly rich book of texts that are too important to  be ignored  just as any other ainchant texts, like Epic of Gilgamesh, the greek Epos, Heimskringla and the Viking  Kings saga,
I like the principles of Jesus life and sacrefice, he was one man against the Roman Empire the most powerfull empire of the earth (that time), and he was brave to opose them, just like Ghandi oposed the British Empire, Martin Luther King opposed the you know what, and Nelson Mandela opposed the Apparteid.


Nice video - and I like Maher's approach to the topic.

BTW: Check out Bart Ehrman's book Jesus, Interrupted. He still believes in God , mind you - but especially in this book he analyzes the Bible and tries to reconstruct what we can know today about who Jesus was and what he actually did. I doubt that he was a hero, or even someone with a large following. At the time he most likely was one of many weird apocalyptical Jewish rabbies with about 20 followers. Nobody even mentions Jesus in his lifetime or in the decades that follow, except for the Christian writers of the Gospels. I don't think that he opposed the Romans - if anything, he opposed his fellow Jews at the temple. In any case, I doubt that if he existed at all, he did anything of historical importance. For all I know, he rose to become this mythical figure because the stories about his life were blown out of proportion by his followers, who kept them in circulation from mouth to mouth, for decades, and like in telephone game each person added some more details.
Back to Top
Textbook View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member


Joined: October 08 2009
Status: Offline
Points: 3281
Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 21 2010 at 17:26
I'd love to see Bill Maher and John Stewart do something together.
 
The idea that a religious president is more willing to commit soldiers to war because if they die they'll go to heaven is an interesting one. Is that true do you think?

Similarly some blame religion for environmental degradation, in that if you believe in judgement day and heaven, obviously this world is an ephemeral place. What matter if it gets spoiled, we're going to heaven, right? Sincere belief in heavenly paradises may make people apathetic about preserving the planet. Your kids and their kids will go to heaven too, so who cares what conditions future generations face on Earth. Thoughts?
Back to Top
Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator

Honorary Collaborator

Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19557
Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 21 2010 at 17:41
Originally posted by Textbook Textbook wrote:

 
The idea that a religious president is more willing to commit soldiers to war because if they die they'll go to heaven is an interesting one. Is that true do you think?

 
Ask Fidel Castro, Stalin, Mao  and Pöl Pot, atheist Presdents or Prime Ministers if they had any problem sending millions to dead no matter they believed their corpses will rotten and without heaven.
 
People talk nonsenses, history proves the contrary.
 
Iván
            
Back to Top
Icarium View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar
VIP Member

Joined: March 21 2008
Location: Tigerstaden
Status: Offline
Points: 34076
Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 21 2010 at 17:53
well three of them are dead so it will be hard to ask them, Fidel is close to die or in some years ( maybe 3-4 mye prediction), but it would be nice to have a cup of cofee with him (and Maradona) about historie and such he is a part of it.
 
 
what a bout Robert Mugabe, personly i don't  don't know what he beliefs,
Back to Top
Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator

Honorary Collaborator

Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19557
Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 21 2010 at 18:02
Originally posted by aginor aginor wrote:

well three of them are dead so it will be hard to ask them, Fidel is close to die or in some years ( maybe 3-4 mye prediction), but it would be nice to have a cup of cofee with him (and Maradona) about historie and such he is a part of it.
 
 
what a bout Robert Mugabe, personly i don't  don't know what he beliefs,
 
Use a ouji board LOL
 
Now seriously, it's only a figure of speech we use in Sapanish, but the point is that all of them were atheists and had no problemn woith sending people to death and killing other millions.
 
Iván
            
Back to Top
Icarium View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar
VIP Member

Joined: March 21 2008
Location: Tigerstaden
Status: Offline
Points: 34076
Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 21 2010 at 18:09
okey, Smile well I am not a fan of those men they make me discusted (even if they were atheist, christian, muslims, hindus or even peacfull budhists). but I can indirectly thank Stalin for me (and my brother being alive, thanks to the hard reality, I am not that old though and I am not greatfull for what he's influence did to my grandmother and grandfather and their parents Angry )
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 4142434445 174>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down



This page was generated in 0.250 seconds.
Donate monthly and keep PA fast-loading and ad-free forever.