Theism vs. Atheism ... will it ever be settled? - Progressive Rock Music Forum

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Sean Trane View Drop Down

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Posted: July 21 2010 at 11:02

timothy leary wrote:

and here I thought the big bang was back in 1967 when I first.........well you know

That's the gang bang !!!!

let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter
keep our sand-castle virtues
content to be a doer
as well as a thinker,
prefer lifting our pen
rather than un-sheath our sword

BaldJean

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Posted: July 21 2010 at 11:06

Tony R wrote:

When Jean refers to "The Big Bang" she seems to be applying a narrow definition that suggests the term only applies to the moment the singularity "exploded" whereas I guess many of us consider the expression to refer not just to that moment but the protracted after effects and conditions.

I am pretty well aware that lots of things happened in the big bang, provided it did happen, which is by no means clear. but the thing that interests me is the state the universe was in when it haoppened

A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta

timothy leary View Drop Down

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Posted: July 21 2010 at 11:15

How can you be aware of a lot of things happening in something you don`t know happened in the first place?

Icarium

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Posted: July 21 2010 at 11:24

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQ_VQQd8SJk

looks like he have taste in music

BaldJean

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Posted: July 21 2010 at 12:00

timothy leary wrote:

How can you be aware of a lot of things happening in something you don`t know happened in the first place?

I never argued the big bang did not happen, I only argued that it is by far not as certain that iit happened as Mike puts it. the theory of relativity and quantum theory have a lot more support than the big bang hypothesis, but Mike always argues as if it was the only logical thing to believe in

A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta

Slartibartfast View Drop Down

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Posted: July 21 2010 at 12:01

timothy leary wrote:

How can you be aware of a lot of things happening in something you don`t know happened in the first place?

Well, if you were a hyper-intelligent pan-dimensional being, you just might be able to answer your own question.

Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...

Mr ProgFreak View Drop Down

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Posted: July 21 2010 at 12:47

BaldJean wrote:

Mr ProgFreak wrote:

BaldFriede finally shed some more light on the matter. I am quite sure though that I never used Occam's Razor to prove the Big Bang theory. Background radiation and cosmological red shift do that just fine, so we don't need to assess any likelyhoods here. But we could still apply the principle and say that there's no need to assume divine intervention, when we already have a workable theory of how it happened, which doesn't need such unlikely additional factors. As far as the laws of physics are concerned: Maybe we'll need to refine them, just like the theory of relativity was a refinement of the Newtonian laws.

Mike, even years after the discovery of the red shift and the 3° Kelvin radiation scientists still hotly debated several cosmological models; it is by no means as clear as you put it.. one has to be aware that the big bang is as much a rabbit pulled out of the hat as anything else, which is all we ever wanted to point out. the state the world was in at the moment the big bang happened. is "undefined", which is rather mystic. scientists have worked their way as close as a fewmoments towards that big bang, but what state the world was in before it happened is very mysterious; any speculation is as good as the other. I am not a mathematician, but Friede is, and she says that the statements "Let there be light",, if you allow me to use this phrase for a creation by God, and "There was a big bang" are absolutely equivalent., and I trust her on that; I know she is a brilliaint mathematician.
by the way, looking back on the past it can be shown that applying the principle of Occam's razor sometimes led to wrong results. sometimes the complicated explanation is the right one. Occam's razor is a good guide, but not one that can be blindly trusted

What is this ... "teach the alternative" time? Sorry, but the Big Bang has long been the standard theory. The alternatives cannot explain the background radiation and red shift as we observe them. At least that is the gist of the Wikipedia pages that I've read ... you're welcome to elaborate on which alternative theories you prefer, then I'd give them a closer look, just out of curiosity.

Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down

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Posted: July 21 2010 at 12:47

Please Tony, don't change try to sell us a fallacy:

I'm sure she knows about the effects produced by the Big Band, and that this consequences are natural and logic, but the singularity itself (the moment when the explosion happened) is a singularity, and for that reason defies all the laws of physics as much as a Demiurge God.

Yes, we believe that the Big Bang most likely happened because if it's effects can be appreciated by scientists, but in our case (I can only talk about Catholic Church), we believe that the force behind the Big Bang was God.

So, we all know that everything that happened after the Big Bang will follow the laws of physics, but the Big Bang itself is a singularity that defies everything.

The Big Bang singularity is a point of zero volume, but very high mass, which makes the density infinite. This singularity contained all of the matter and energy in the Universe. The initial moment of the cyclopean explosion very well remains a mystery

http://www.physlink.com/education/askexperts/ae649.cfm

And this is not harassment Tony, she's keeping her position which is absolutely logic and valid.

Iván

Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - July 21 2010 at 12:59

Mr ProgFreak View Drop Down

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Posted: July 21 2010 at 12:51

Mr ProgFreak View Drop Down

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Posted: July 21 2010 at 12:54

^^ BTW Iván: Is this the second time you called it "Big Band"? Wink

Mr ProgFreak View Drop Down

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Posted: July 21 2010 at 12:57

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

So, we all know that everything that happened after the Big Bang will follow the laws of physics, but the Big Bang itself is a singularity that defies everything.

I don't think so at all. The thing is that we simply haven't managed to unify relativity and quantum mechanics yet. IMO there's no contradiction at all here - with our present understanding of the physical laws it may not make sense to us yet, but it's absolutely possible that at some point we will be able to expand these laws so that it will make sense. Just as Newtonian laws couldn't explain the orbits of the planets precisely until Einstein came along and expanded the equations.

Equality 7-2521 View Drop Down

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Posted: July 21 2010 at 13:00

The situation is a bit more dire than Newton's flaws, but there's no reason that the issue won't be solved even in the near future.

"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "

Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down

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Posted: July 21 2010 at 13:03

Mr ProgFreak wrote:

^^ BTW Iván: Is this the second time you called it "Big Band"? Wink

Yes, I have Carpal tunnel syndrome in the right hand (it costs me a lot to type), but I believe you understood it.

Iván

Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down

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Posted: July 21 2010 at 13:07

Mr ProgFreak wrote:

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

So, we all know that everything that happened after the Big Bang will follow the laws of physics, but the Big Bang itself is a singularity that defies everything.

The only fact is that you can't explain it more than we can't explain God usibng actual laws of physics.

But even when you don't know if it will happen you have faith that at some point we will be able to expand these laws so that it will make sense.

Not so different than us.

Iván

Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - July 21 2010 at 13:12

Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down

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Posted: July 21 2010 at 13:08

Mr ProgFreak wrote:

Wink

Doesn't Dawkins look as a fundamentalist preacher in his pulpit explaining his own perception of religion in front of a fanatic crowd ready to applaud anything he says?

Iván

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Posted: July 21 2010 at 13:16

^^ What does faith have to do with it? I guess you could say that I'm confident. Looking back at past discoveries, there is a pattern of religious people claiming that some things cannot be explained by science and then some scientist came along and did so. There is no faith involved, just experience and extrapolation. And even if we'll never find out how exactly the universe was created, that still doesn't mean that the only explanation is "God did it - and that's all there is to know".

I'm very different from you. I rely only on scientific facts and assumptions based on the real world - like for example that the sun will rise tomorrow, just as it did today. If you think that this also involves faith, then everything does, and the word "faith" becomes absolutely meaningless.

You have faith in that the communion wafer becomes the actual body of Christ. We can examine that wafer scientifically and everything tells us that it's just a wafer, yet your religion requires you to ignore all that and trust that it's the actual body of Christ, and that somehow eating the flesh of your savior has some bearing on your life. I'd like to think that this is a very different kind of faith compared to my confidence that at some point scientific advances might make it possible to completely explain the structure of our universe, and how it was created. I'm not saying that it *will* happen - I'm not making any positive claim in the absence of evidence.

Edited by Mr ProgFreak - July 21 2010 at 13:16

Mr ProgFreak View Drop Down

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Posted: July 21 2010 at 13:18

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Doesn't Dawkins look as a fundamentalist preacher in his pulpit explaining his own perception of religion in front of a fanatic crowd ready to applaud anything he says?

Iván

Just when I thought your arguments couldn't get any worse ... LOL

Well, maybe others will watch the video instead of jumping to premature conclusions.

JJLehto

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Posted: July 21 2010 at 13:31

I like the Big Band Theory.
And this is not to make fun of anyone, but a Big Band that plays for God, after all he had good taste in music, was too loud one day and started the Universe.

Im publishing this

The T

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