Theism vs. Atheism ... will it ever be settled?

Mr ProgFreak wrote: BaldJean wrote: what practical implication does it have, by the way, that you don't believe in a deity? it seems a bit esoteric to me That's exactly my point. You're an Atheist like me, as far as practical matters are concerned. Your notion of the world being a process does not affect your life in any particular way. BTW: I can appreciate the wonders of the world ... being an Atheist does not mean that you see everything in a cold and rational way. The difference is that Atheists don't alter their behavior based on unfounded theories about how any supposed deities wants us to behave. Your view would become a religion once you established any rules or rituals that make specific assumptions on how you can interact (or merely affect your standing) with supernatural agencies.

I am by no means an atheist, Mike. there are rituals Friede and I perform to worship Gaia.

"wait a moment" you may now say. "why suddenly Gaia and not the whole of the universe"? quite simple: the consciousness of the universe is so very remote from mine that I feel it is too hard to reach. Gaia, on the other hand, which is our word for the process of planet Earth, is closer to us, so we decide to worship her. the gender pronouns are just traditionally being used; it is not that as if we actually believe the consciousness of the earth is female. yet we have a little sculptue of Gaia which shows her as a pregnant mother; we think it is very beautiful. it can be ordered online; I will show a picture of it here. her hair is entwined with all kinds of flowers and animals.


our lives are affected in the way that we are thankful to Gaia for all she supplies us with. and we have our four great rituals which take part on the four holidays of our religion, which mark the beginnings of the 4 seasons.

we even developed a calendar of our own by which we live. it has 13 months of 28 days each plus a New Year's Day, which does not belong to any month or week. in leap years we have a leap day too, which immediately follows New Year's Day. it does not belong to nay month or week either.

our year begins with the vernal equinox, the first of our four big holidays. thus a year resembles a human life, with spring being childhood, summer young adulthood, fall middle age and winter old age. four our four holidays we paint ourselves head to toe in the color of the beginning season: green for the grass of spring, red for the blossoms of summer, yellowish-brown for the leaves of fall and white for the snow of winter.

for practical reasons we have to live by the Gregorian calendar in everyday life, but in our private lives we use our own calendar.

do you still call us atheists now? or do you call us "just weird"?

Slartibartfast wrote: I get the feeling that "just weird" is a badge you guys would wear with honor.

Textbook wrote: I am very suspicious of someone who makes inquiries into the nature of the universe but before beginning, assumes certain principles as fact on a basis of faith. This is arguing from a conclusion and is a very dubious pursuit.

Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - July 20 2010 at 11:10

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote: Mr ProgFreak wrote: Well, show me even one post where I base any of my own arguments on scripture, and I'll comment on that. As far as I can remember I've only ever quoted scripture in response to scripture based arguments by Theists.   Mike, I would need ten pages, because yu have quoted the Bible several times to contradict our opinions and you know it.

I excluded arguments that are mere responses to arguments based on scripture. When someone says "The bible says ...", and I respond by "the Bible also says ...", that's simply a reply. None of my positions or arguments require any positive confirmations in scripture.

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote: Mr ProgFreak wrote: BTW: What you must live with is that the Bible does not qualify as a good reason for your belief, since you can't demonstrate to me (or anyone else) that it is in any way authoritative.   Sorry Mike, that's not something I must live with, for me the Bible qualifies perfectly as the main source of answers for matters of faith.   And you will have to live with us believing what we want and teaching our children what we believe in.   Iván

Sadly, I will have to live with that.

Mr ProgFreak wrote: Ivan_Melgar_M wrote: Mr ProgFreak wrote: Well, show me even one post where I base any of my own arguments on scripture, and I'll comment on that. As far as I can remember I've only ever quoted scripture in response to scripture based arguments by Theists.   Mike, I would need ten pages, because yu have quoted the Bible several times to contradict our opinions and you know it. I excluded arguments that are mere responses to arguments based on scripture. When someone says "The bible says ...", and I respond by "the Bible also says ...", that's simply a reply. None of my positions or arguments require any positive confirmations in scripture. Ivan_Melgar_M wrote: Mr ProgFreak wrote: BTW: What you must live with is that the Bible does not qualify as a good reason for your belief, since you can't demonstrate to me (or anyone else) that it is in any way authoritative.   Sorry Mike, that's not something I must live with, for me the Bible qualifies perfectly as the main source of answers for matters of faith.   And you will have to live with us believing what we want and teaching our children what we believe in.   Iván Sadly, I will have to live with that.

nor do any of your arguments have any support outside scripture, Mike. and don't throw Occam's razor at me, Mike; that principle does not apply here, as you should very well be aware of

Mr ProgFreak wrote: BaldJean wrote: nor do any of your arguments have any support outside scripture, Mike. and don't throw Occam's razor at me, Mike; that principle does not apply here, as you should very well be aware of Of course Occam's Razor applies ... that's as certain as the rule that you should end sentences with a full stop.

Sorry, Mike, but Jean is quite right: The principle is not applicable in this case. Look up Occam's razor and the conditions under which it can be applied.

Don't know anything about it except the only time I hear Occam's razor brought up it is by pretentious asshats that throw out pseudo intellectual BS.

And im not being silly, thats really the only time I hear someone use it.

thellama73 wrote: JJLehto wrote: Don't know anything about it except the only time I hear Occam's razor brought up it is by pretentious asshats that throw out pseudo intellectual BS. And im not being silly, thats really the only time I hear someone use it. That's because it doesn't really work in most real world scenarios and is easily abused to try to prove things that aren't true.

ah well there you go. Though I should at least look up what it is...I still have no idea at all.
To Wiki!

Mr ProgFreak wrote: ^ You're essentially saying the same. "Something requires faith in order to believe it" is equivalent to saying "there are no good reasons to believe it", if you define good reasons as reasons which make sense objectively. Another way of putting it is "if there were good reasons, you wouldn't need faith to believe it". If you wanted to build a house, and you hired an architect to plan it,  and you asked the architect about the techniques he employs and he said  "I can't give you any specific explanations - I simply have a lot of faith in my methods, and I even had a revelation to that effect, telling me that it's ok to build houses that way" ... would you let him proceed? Of course religious people will say that you can't compare building houses to ideas about religious practice and how it may affect eternal salvation or damnation, but as an Atheist I cannot see why you shouldn't. I would say that whether you'll burn in hell or ascend to heaven is at least as important as whether your house will stand or collapse.  If you demand good reasons from your architect to justify his recommendations on how to build the house, you should also demand good reasons from your church to justify their recommendations on how you have to live your life, and what to believe.

Fair comments Mike and understandable knowing your position. You state " You should also demand good reasons from your church to justify their recommendations on how to live your life, and what to believe"

.

I would counter that by saying maybe you need to stop seeking externally for answers from churches or books, sometimes the answers are already within you

it appears Mike is still looking up Occam's razor.