French approve ban on burqas...

The T wrote: Can someone comment of the fact that a survey shows total approval for the ban in Europe? And little support for it in the US? I've asked this question twice already... It's interesting that most people in the old continent are in favor of the measure... Opinions?

thellama73 wrote: Equality 7-2521 wrote: Individual freedom is an American thing, that's why we broke from the old world and its terrors. This is true. I also think Europe has had more long term problems with Islam in their culture. In America, we have had a few terrorists attacks, but. European countries generally have a much more visible Islamic population that many probably view as "invaders." This has been going on for a really long time in Europe, but hasn't really been something Americans have become aware of until recently.

seventhsojourn wrote: thellama73 wrote: Equality 7-2521 wrote: Individual freedom is an American thing, that's why we broke from the old world and its terrors. This is true. I also think Europe has had more long term problems with Islam in their culture. In America, we have had a few terrorists attacks, but. European countries generally have a much more visible Islamic population that many probably view as "invaders." This has been going on for a really long time in Europe, but hasn't really been something Americans have become aware of until recently.   A few months ago several Moslem clerics were invited to Britain from Afghanistan. The Taliban seemingly tell people that Britain does not permit mosques, therefore the purpose of the invitation was to show these clerics that the Taliban was wrong. A news team accompanied them to visit some mosques... fine. The following weekend there were riots in another UK city... because of the building of a new mosque!   http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23821423-violence-at-anti-mosque-protest.do   I also think it's ironic to allude to Moslems as ''invaders''.

To be clear, I didn't say that they were invaders, I said many Europeans perceive them that way, which is true.

Textbook wrote: As I said before, a poll in NZ shows more than 80% approval for the ban. And NZ is a politically progressive country. (First country to give women the vote, the no nukes thing, two female leaders before many nations had any, voted transsexuals and homosexuals into parliament etc etc) So why are we being xenophobic about the burqas? Well I don't think we are. I think over here the anti-burqa thing is not an anti-Islam thing, but a pro woman's rights thing.

but it is actually an anti-wonen's right thing. you take away their right to wear a burqa

Look, should we bring back an Indian woman's right to be burned alive with her husband? Do African women have a right to be circumcised?

Equality 7-2521 wrote: Textbook wrote: As I said before, a poll in NZ shows more than 80% approval for the ban. And NZ is a politically progressive country. (First country to give women the vote, the no nukes thing, two female leaders before many nations had any, voted transsexuals and homosexuals into parliament etc etc) So why are we being xenophobic about the burqas? Well I don't think we are. I think over here the anti-burqa thing is not an anti-Islam thing, but a pro woman's rights thing. A progressive agenda stomping on rights. Hmmm not surprised so much myself.

This is SOCIAL issues....keep in mind not economic.
Unless progressivism = crushing government regardless.....
Remember progressives only want to crush your economic rights its conservatives that want to crush our social rights
What is this world coming to now!?

Equality 7-2521 wrote: Enough with trying to "save" groups of people by imposing our will and culture on them. That course has been tried and to no avail.

Personally I don't think the government should tell people want to wear and that a burqa ban is incoherent from a rights/liberties point of view. However I do disapprove of the burqa and wish it wasn't worn. This isn't a reason to ban it or for people not wear it but it does mean I can express my disapproval of it and hope that when this disapproval is in concert with other people who feel the same way, that people begin to notice/listen. I anticipate the burqa will be left behind naturally as an anachronism without any banning and this is a much more desirably outcome. The Islamic world has recently done several things to improve the standing of women (the university in Saudi Arabia, the divorce ruling in Yemen, the female MPs in Kuwait, the ruling that Sharia courts should not be held and their ruling ignored in Pakistan etc etc) so the burqa could eventually become a relic as well though great patience is needed.

BaldJean wrote: Equality 7-2521 wrote: If you see it as relativism you're really misunderstanding the argument. Those two examples are purely ones of force. Women are coerced into them. There's no need to give a women a right not to be burned alive by her husband. There are already laws against murder. Just as in this case we need not give women the right to not wear a burqa. That exists. Any coercion which forces them to do so is already illegal and rightfully so. This law only hurts those who want to wear the burqa.  Enough with trying to "save" groups of people by imposing our will and culture on them. That course has been tried and to no avail.

I know is not the same situation, but the Irak issue is the best example of trying to "make the good way" into other nations and cultures. Sorry, it won't work and all you make is to step backwards into the so called "progress".

I'm not sure how exactly this is supposed to work anyway on a practical level.

Some muslim women would stop wearing the burqua, but that would surely be a minority.

Those refusing to bow to the ban would be forced to stay out of the public eye in the privacy of their four walls, which I'm pretty certain would actually happen. This would be akin to house arrest.

But a third group would be forced, for practical reasons, to go into the street without the burqa and as a consequence face abuse (both mental and possibly physical punishment) at the hand of their own families for disregarding tradition and family authority. The muslim culture has shown that the women alone will be held responsible by the male family members.

This is not unlikely: many occurrences in the past have shown that mulsim women who defy the traditional-, family- and religious views because of their new western surroundings have suffered dire consequences i.e. corporal punishment and even death at the hand of family members. This has happened in an astonishingly large number of cases.

All this just means that on a purely practical level it's the muslim women alone who will suffer from the ban. They probably are, by rights, very very frightened.


Edited by npjnpj - July 20 2010 at 00:26