Theism vs. Atheism ... will it ever be settled? - Progressive Rock Music Forum

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Chris S

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Posted: July 19 2010 at 14:57

And one important factor missing in this interesting debate:

How can you analyse Faith?

Surely faith wins over all the arguments for/against here?

And if you do not have it you will never be convinced otherwise, regardless of whether the Bible is dismissed or valid.

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CPicard

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Posted: July 19 2010 at 15:02

Chris S wrote:

And one important factor missing in this interesting debate:

How can you analyse Faith?

With a scalpel.

At least, that's what I understood from some weird science magazine.

Textbook

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Posted: July 19 2010 at 16:08

faith = laziness/complacency/failure to be a functioning person

BaldJean

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Posted: July 19 2010 at 16:29

Textbook wrote:

faith = laziness/complacency/failure to be a functioning person

I hope you are being ironic now. I know lots of people who have faith who are neither lazy nor complacent and who are fully functioning persons. and not although but because they have faith

A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta

Textbook

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Posted: July 19 2010 at 16:35

Well no, you see, if you actually have faith than your actions aren't required. I think these people say they have faith because they think it makes them sound like good people.

The T

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Posted: July 19 2010 at 17:13

Textbook wrote:

faith = laziness/complacency/failure to be a functioning person

I'm closer to being an atheist than anything else, but the only lazy, failed thing around here is your post.

Leave the textbooks and go out in the real world meet real people. Then come and see if you can re-write your incredibly revolutionary theory...

timothy leary View Drop Down

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Posted: July 19 2010 at 17:40

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

timothy leary wrote:

The Saviour never introduced Peter to the other disciples by saying: 'See, I have appointed Peter as My successor; receive him as your Pope and head of the Church, call him Holy Father, honour and obey him.' On the contrary, Jesus made the following positive declaration, which is diametrically opposed to Roman teaching: 'But be ye not called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren. And call no man your father upon the earth for one is your Father, which is in heaven. Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ. But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant. And whosoever shalt exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.' Matthew 23:8-12.

A quote speaks more than 1,000 words by a third person:

Matthew 16:
18 And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.
19 I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

The text is clear, he gave full authority to Peter and he transmitted it to his followers, the fact that Rome is the center of the Catholic Church, means very little, the Church could had been founded anywhere as long as the followers of Peter existed (I'll expand this issue later in the post).

But, you are free to disagree

Timothy Lear wrote:

No jew was pope, no man has the power to forgive sins and nowhere does the new testament show peter being in rome

The Bible is not an instruction manual on the organization of the Churches, but all what you mention is in the Bible

1.- Forgiving sins:

John 20: 20 - 23

When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. The disciples rejoiced when they saw the Lord. (Jesus) said to them again, "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you.And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the holy Spirit. Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained."

Can't be more evident, God instituted the Confession before a man who could forgive sins

2.- Peter being in Rome: Well, even when the Bible who identify Babylon as Rome clearly states Peter was here, but even if you don't believe that, you must remember that Jerusalem was part of Rome, and the logic dictates that the see of the Church is in the city of Rome, which was the capital of the empire.

3.- The name Holy father has a theological explanation that would be too long and boring, but there's a simple explanation, the term comes from "Patriarch" (Pater - Patriarch - Father), the term was used to difference he Patriarch of West (The Pope) and the Patriarch of East (Patriarch of the Eastern Churches), and was only used in 642 by the Pope Theodore I.

The Bible can't be followed literally, if that was the case, we should have (or be) slaves, the terms and the organization of an Institution of 1.5 billion Catholic Christians, has to evolve.

But you are free to disagree, just don't say we don't have justification.

Iván

Peter never celebrated mass, nor did he hear confessions; he never directed a soul to pray to Mary nor to the saints, nor to use beads; he never advocated the use of holy water, and scapulars, and old bones; he never ordered the people to abstain from meat on Fridays and during Lent; he never declared that priests and nuns should not marry; he never presented his foot to be kissed; he never lived in a palace with soldiers to guard him and hundreds of servants to supply his every want. Why did he not do these things? Because he never was Pope.

BaldJean

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Posted: July 19 2010 at 17:46

Mr ProgFreak wrote:

You're right, you did not, I skimmed that incorrectly. Wink

"Your arguments are very much in tune with arguments I have seen against the theory of relativity. Lots of misunderstandings and misconceptions."

I'd still prefer specific criticism. Which misunderstandings, which misconceptions.

Mike, no-one can give you an answer to that; that's something you have to find out for yourself. your refusal to read it is just pigheaded. I doubt anyone would go around saying "I know all about the bible; I've read dozens of experts on it. you don't have to read the book itrself; just read what the experts say". from these experts you only get their opinions; the text has already been filtered through another mind. I prefer to filter it through my own mind first before passing it on to the experts

Edited by BaldJean - July 19 2010 at 19:24

A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta

Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down

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Posted: July 19 2010 at 19:13

timothy leary wrote:

Nor he traveled in planes, drove cars, watched television, used a phone, ate hamburgers, or was fan of a soccer team.....................And so?

Again, the Bible is not a manual.

Iván

Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - July 19 2010 at 19:16

jampa17

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Posted: July 19 2010 at 19:44

The T wrote:

Textbook wrote:

faith = laziness/complacency/failure to be a functioning person

I'm closer to being an atheist than anything else, but the only lazy, failed thing around here is your post.

Leave the textbooks and go out in the real world meet real people. Then come and see if you can re-write your incredibly revolutionary theory...

Textbook, sorry, but you are wrong. I wonder when you get that "faith=laziness". You know the quantity of believers that will to travel half of the World to help other people, to pritch or to ask for forvigeness. I can assure you that a believer rather to go out and live than stay answering silly qoutes in a website.

Mmm.. I imagine that you are very active yourself...

... Nah... I don't think so...

Change the program inside... Stay in silence is a crime.

Equality 7-2521 View Drop Down

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Posted: July 19 2010 at 19:48

Textbook wrote:

Well no, you see, if you actually have faith than your actions aren't required. I think these people say they have faith because they think it makes them sound like good people.

You discredit your cause with such ridiculous statement. The number of names one could run down whose intellect completely dwarves yours and believed in a "god" of sorts if staggering.

"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "

JJLehto

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Posted: July 19 2010 at 19:49

Yeah...gotta be honest Textbook, if anything
and this is not only theoretical but based on observation

it is atheists that are the lazy ones,
and this is coming from someone that has way more in common with atheists than religious folk

And yeah, never really seen you around much until recently textbook. Welcome! Glad to see we have another new crazy/pretentious/rude poster! We need more around! Seriously, your post was ourtight dumb and closed minded, arent you people supposed to be the smart rational ones!?

ah damn, probably gunna get censored now

Edited by JJLehto - July 19 2010 at 19:50

JJLehto

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Posted: July 19 2010 at 19:51

Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Textbook wrote:

Well no, you see, if you actually have faith than your actions aren't required. I think these people say they have faith because they think it makes them sound like good people.

You discredit your cause with such ridiculous statement. The number of names one could run down whose intellect completely dwarves yours and believed in a "god" of sorts if staggering.

Yes, that is one of the more stupid things, on a lot of levels, I have seen. And we've had a ton of these threads before! Not to mention he is right.
A lot of atheists say crazy preachers damn their cause, but atheists are just as bad. The outright insulting, stupid filth I have heard come out of alot of their mouths is just as unappealing to me. If anything talking/observing atheists have turned me away from them, and this comment is another one

timothy leary View Drop Down

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Posted: July 19 2010 at 19:52

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

timothy leary wrote:

Nor he traveled in planes, drove cars, watched television, used a phone, ate hamburgers, or was fan of a soccer team.....................And so?

Again, the Bible is not a manual.

Iván

you win have your Pope

Equality 7-2521 View Drop Down

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Posted: July 19 2010 at 19:54

JJLehto wrote:

Yeah...gotta be honest Textbook, if anything
and this is not only theoretical but based on observation

it is atheists that are the lazy ones,
and this is coming from someone that has way more in common with atheists than religious folk

And yeah, never really seen you around much until recently textbook. Welcome! Glad to see we have another new crazy/pretentious/rude poster! We need more around! Seriously, your post was ourtight dumb and closed minded, arent you people supposed to be the smart rational ones!?

ah damn, probably gunna get censored now

Lil' out of line maybe.

"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "

JJLehto

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Posted: July 19 2010 at 19:55

Not like its the first time...
What can I say? Out of line but not incorrect go ahead and censor me, at least someone got to see it Smile

Textbook

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Posted: July 19 2010 at 20:11

Isn't faith the abandonment of inquiry and personal agency? That seems intellectually lazy to me.

Equality 7-2521 View Drop Down

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Posted: July 19 2010 at 20:17

Textbook wrote:

Isn't faith the abandonment of inquiry and personal agency? That seems intellectually lazy to me.

Yes Thomas Aquinas certainly abandoned inquiry with his faith. His brain was awfully barren.

"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "

Textbook

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Posted: July 19 2010 at 20:21

Look, just because someone wrote some things that a lot of people have discussed for many years, doesn't make them an indisputable genius.

I am very suspicious of someone who makes inquiries into the nature of the universe but before beginning, assumes certain principles as fact on a basis of faith. This is arguing from a conclusion and is a very dubious pursuit.

The T

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Posted: July 19 2010 at 20:24

Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Textbook wrote:

Isn't faith the abandonment of inquiry and personal agency? That seems intellectually lazy to me.

Yes Thomas Aquinas certainly abandoned inquiry with his faith. His brain was awfully barren.

Oh yes Johann Sebastian Bach was incredibly faithful, also incredibly lazy and stupid according to this wise assessment by Textbook....

So many lazy people that have existed in this earth, disguised as geniuses, and just now we finally take their masks off!! Thanks TB...