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The T 
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Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
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Points: 17493
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 Posted: July 16 2010 at 23:03 |
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^Strange. You always end up blaming one side for all problems and characterizing the others as just doing things because they can. Great morals in my opinion. "if you can do it, do it".
I see your point though. It's pretty consistent with your thoughts. The demonization of those in government, never those in the private end of things. Curiously, countries like the nordic ones have never been known as deep clusters of corruption, snd they have plenty of social policies there.
I can't deny some reason to the argument though. My country and Venezuela are an example. Corruption runs rampant because people's morals are corrupted and the government is, in those cases, TRULY too big.
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JJLehto
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 05 2006
Location: Tallahassee, FL
Status: Offline
Points: 34550
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Posted: July 16 2010 at 23:12 |
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Hence why Social Democracy and not Socialism...is the ideal system. For others reasons as well.
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The T
Special Collaborator
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Points: 17493
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Posted: July 16 2010 at 23:15 |
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^That's what I think. But people here deem everythig that is not 100% pro-full-free market "socialism".
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JJLehto
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 05 2006
Location: Tallahassee, FL
Status: Offline
Points: 34550
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Posted: July 16 2010 at 23:42 |
Well that's nothing new  Being a political/debate enthusiast (meh Ill go with ass instead...) Im used to it. However, I have grown tired of explaining differences and finer points, especially to dumb people (no one this site of course fits that) so often I just leave it as "I believe in doing in whats right, if I am a socialist than fine"
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JJLehto
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 05 2006
Location: Tallahassee, FL
Status: Offline
Points: 34550
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Posted: July 16 2010 at 23:49 |
And I must say, I've missed quite a few pages in here. Anything good? At least T has filled my spot of being the pest of the Libertarians  keep up the good work.
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The T
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
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Points: 17493
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Posted: July 17 2010 at 00:04 |
^Difficult it is with so many around. It would seem prog is actually the music of choice for Libertarians.
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manofmystery
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 26 2008
Location: PA, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 4335
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Posted: July 17 2010 at 01:27 |
 The T wrote:
^Strange. You always end up blaming one side for all problems and characterizing the others as just doing things because they can. Great morals in my opinion. "if you can do it, do it".
I see your point though. It's pretty consistent with your thoughts. The demonization of those in government, never those in the private end of things. Curiously, countries like the nordic ones have never been known as deep clusters of corruption, snd they have plenty of social policies there.
I can't deny some reason to the argument though. My country and Venezuela are an example. Corruption runs rampant because people's morals are corrupted and the government is, in those cases, TRULY too big. |
I'm far from "blaming" one side; what I am doing is pointing out that a large, hands-on, government makes business more powerful. This doesn't assess morality at all. Human beings are individuals and cannot be simply lumped into groups because it makes it easier for you to pick enemies. Not all businessmen are evil and not all government employees are evil. Regardless, that isn't what this is about. It is about the actions of the official power structure (government) enabling big business to become more influencial by involving themselves in the market structure. Business will work to influence the politicians and bureaucrats (can't forget the faceless and unfireable lads and ladies that politicians entrust to manage we the people) for as long as the politicians and bureaucrats involve themselves in the market. The last statement holds no moral judgement or side-vs-side politicial opinion, it's just a fact of life. Again, if you want to decrease the input of business over Washington (or wherever your capital might be) then demand Washington decrease it's input (that is the polite way of putting it considering they are the ones with a military) over business. I haven't mentioned corruption in either this statement or my last but I will add that there is no better way to foster corruption than to grant people the power to regulate others.
Those of you who have come out as supporting "social democracy" do you mean that you:
Simply support a gradual democratic transition from (what passes for) capitalism to socialism.
or:
Support a welfare state that attempts to mix capitalism and socialism.
That's just an honest question since it seems to have become a popular buzz term in this thread.
Might take awhile to get back to this thread because, while I do have a day off tomorrow, I'm hoping I can find something better to do with my time  .
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 Time always wins.
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The T
Special Collaborator
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Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 17493
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Posted: July 17 2010 at 09:03 |
^You probably won't (what could be more attractive than discussing libertarianism on the internet? 
Yes,a third way is what I support, a system that takes the concept of free market and personal gain but mixes it with regulation and social policies.
Look, is not impossible. Check the old viking lands... .
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15784
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Posted: July 17 2010 at 09:04 |
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What parts of the free market need to be kept and which parts need to be regulated?
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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horsewithteeth11
Prog Reviewer
Joined: January 09 2008
Location: Kentucky
Status: Offline
Points: 24598
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Posted: July 17 2010 at 10:27 |
JJLehto wrote:
Well that's nothing new
Being a political/debate enthusiast (meh Ill go with ass instead...)
Im used to it. However, I have grown tired of explaining differences and finer points, especially to dumb people (no one this site of course fits that) so often I just leave it as "I believe in doing in whats right, if I am a socialist than fine"
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I'm curious as to what you define as "right".
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Slartibartfast
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam
Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
Status: Offline
Points: 29630
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Posted: July 17 2010 at 11:28 |
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
What parts of the free market need to be kept and which parts need to be regulated? |
It all needs to be kept and regulated. Within reason of course.
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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JJLehto
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 05 2006
Location: Tallahassee, FL
Status: Offline
Points: 34550
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Posted: July 17 2010 at 18:38 |
horsewithteeth11 wrote:
JJLehto wrote:
Well that's nothing new
Being a political/debate enthusiast (meh Ill go with ass instead...)
Im used to it. However, I have grown tired of explaining differences and finer points, especially to dumb people (no one this site of course fits that) so often I just leave it as "I believe in doing in whats right, if I am a socialist than fine"
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I'm curious as to what you define as "right".
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Well keep in mind, whenever I get to using that specific statement I am fed up with stupid people and they will probably have their minds blown And I think you can guess man, it was quite a debate pages ago about what (if any) limits there are on rights. Like universal healthcare or anything redistributive...the "common good" vs. absolute rights thing. Personally, I think good music is right. A list will be compiled by me of all acceptable bands, and rights be damned! Im sick of all this crap on the radio and all around me!
Edited by JJLehto - July 17 2010 at 18:45
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The T
Special Collaborator
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Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 17493
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Posted: July 17 2010 at 19:01 |
Slartibartfast wrote:
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
What parts of the free market need to be kept and which parts need to be regulated? |
It all needs to be kept and regulated. Within reason of course. |
The market has to be free enough to allow for competition and personal gain, but regulated in order to avoid that personal interest to be in detriment of the general good.
Don't come to me saying "that can't be done". There are several examples of that. The nordic countries in Europe. Chile in South America (the region's most prosperous country) among others.
Do you have any example in history of anabsolutely free market? Has a society like the one you dream of ever existed?
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Epignosis
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: December 30 2007
Location: Raeford, NC
Status: Offline
Points: 32524
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Posted: July 17 2010 at 19:32 |
The T wrote:
Do you have any example in history of anabsolutely free market? Has a society like the one you dream of ever existed? |
As far as I know, we've never had an absolutely free market in the Western sense (some ancient tribes had something close).
Nobody ever addressed my point about regulating consumers. Instead of telling businesses what they can and can't do, maybe the government should tell consumers what they may buy and from whom and how often. Why not that? 
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The T
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 17493
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Posted: July 17 2010 at 21:51 |
Well, government already tells people when to start buying alcohol and not to start buying drugs... .
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Epignosis
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: December 30 2007
Location: Raeford, NC
Status: Offline
Points: 32524
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Posted: July 17 2010 at 22:00 |
The T wrote:
Well, government already tells people when to start buying alcohol and not to start buying drugs... . |
Take me seriously.
Would you be okay with the government regulating your buying power? Telling you what you can buy, when, in what quantity, and from whom? Why or why not?
The T wrote:
regulated in order to avoid that personal interest to be
in detriment of the general good.
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The way people spend their money involves personal interest that can be to the detriment of the general good.
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15784
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Posted: July 17 2010 at 23:21 |
The T wrote:
Slartibartfast wrote:
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
What parts of the free market need to be kept and which parts need to be regulated? |
It all needs to be kept and regulated. Within reason of course. |
The market has to be free enough to allow for competition and personal gain, but regulated in order to avoid that personal interest to be in detriment of the general good.
Don't come to me saying "that can't be done". There are several examples of that. The nordic countries in Europe. Chile in South America (the region's most prosperous country) among others.
Do you have any example in history of anabsolutely free market? Has a society like the one you dream of ever existed? |
You first sentence is contradicting itself 
Not quite. In the early Colonial period PA operated essentially without any governmental structure. The US under the Articles of Confederation was close. Even right after the Constitution was ratified we had that, but changes took place quickly.
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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JJLehto
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 05 2006
Location: Tallahassee, FL
Status: Offline
Points: 34550
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Posted: July 17 2010 at 23:24 |
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thellama73
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: May 29 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 8368
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Posted: July 17 2010 at 23:36 |
The T wrote:
^Strange. You always end up blaming one side for all problems and characterizing the others as just doing things because they can. Great morals in my opinion. "if you can do it, do it".
I see your point though. It's pretty consistent with your thoughts. The demonization of those in government, never those in the private end of things. |
T, I think the reason we come down harder on governments than on private companies is that, if you don't like what a company is doing, you don't have to work for it or buy its products. You can protest it and campaign for others to boycott it, you can even start your own company to compete with it (although this last option is obvious not feasible for most people.) With a government, you are forced by law to support it financially, and it not subject to competition. Wal-mart can't put you in jail for boycotting it, governments can.
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JJLehto
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 05 2006
Location: Tallahassee, FL
Status: Offline
Points: 34550
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Posted: July 17 2010 at 23:46 |
Though if Wal Mart had the ability to do so I have no doubt they would
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