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Mr ProgFreak View Drop Down
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Points: 5195 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 17 2010 at 00:03
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Originally posted by Mr ProgFreak Mr ProgFreak wrote:

^^ If you said that non-Catholics burn in hell, I would call you consistent with the traditions of your church.Well, I do not seek God. Will you now at least grant me the possibility of hell?Wink


 
For God's sake Mike, TRADITION IS HISTORY
 
The official position of the Church in a document written in his ex cathedra attribution declareds that even Non Christians can achieve salvation.That's a dogma of faith and we can't doubt it no matter what tradition is.
 
But there's no worst blind that the one that doesn't want to see, you add new  Youtube films of more atheists, and give a sh!t about what we all have to say, showing a total lack of respect for the debate and the positions of anybody except Mike.
 
Iván


Your text said that one of the conditions for salvation is seeking God. I'm not doing that. Now, please, I ask you: Might I be disqualified from achieving salvation?

But maybe modern Catholicism has simply become liberal and moderate to the point where it doesn't have an opinion about anything anymore. Couldn't we say then that it's becoming more and more pointless? And at the same time, I can tell you from first hand experience that most Catholics that I've met have never heard of these ideas. That must be because they get their religious education as kids, from preachers, and do not actively read 1000+ page catechisms.
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Points: 17493 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 17 2010 at 00:14
The last name was Kagan Mike, the last name.

It was more of a secular summer camp. And his justification was pretty much what you said.
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Points: 19535 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 17 2010 at 01:20
Originally posted by Mr ProgFreak Mr ProgFreak wrote:



Your text said that one of the conditions for salvation is seeking God. I'm not doing that. Now, please, I ask you: Might I be disqualified from achieving salvation?
 
I don't know what God's plans are neither I can talk ex cathedra...I'm not 100% sure  if I'm a candidate for salvation myself, so I can't talk about you.

Originally posted by Mr ProgFreak Mr ProgFreak wrote:

But maybe modern Catholicism has simply become liberal and moderate to the point where it doesn't have an opinion about anything anymore. Couldn't we say then that it's becoming more and more pointless?

By the contrary, we have opinions only that Catholicism becoming more and more tolerant, and I believe that is good for us, probably not for fundamentalist atheists who rather see religions guided by guys like Fallwel, Bob Jones or Phelps, because it's easier to discredit those bigots.

The more tolerant religions are, the less arguments that guys like Dawkins have..

And no, it's not pointless, we are sure of our faith, but I don't see the point of going there threatening people with hell if they don't turn into Catholics, because those converts are usually not real Catholics, religion is not fear, it's faith

But please, answer me something, if your complain is against intolerant religious people why do you bother when we show signs of tolerance?

Or is it that you will use any behaviour to attack us? We don't attack your disbelief because we are sure of our beliefs...Are you so insecure that you need to discredit us to feel you are right?

Originally posted by Mr ProgFreak Mr ProgFreak wrote:

  And at the same time, I can tell you from first hand experience that most Catholics that I've met have never heard of these ideas. That must be because they get their religious education as kids, from preachers, and do not actively read 1000+ page catechisms.

In first place, you only have second hand experience, because you are not a Catholic, your opinion is based on hearsay, while we are inside.

People don't know this things, because most of us have been taught before the changes of Vatican II were really known and by traditional priests who were not ready for the change, but the more time it passes, ,more people will be accepting his teachings as their truth.

And about the Catechism, I haven't read it complete, I consult it when I have a doubt on a specific issue like in this case.
Iván
            
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 17 2010 at 03:39
Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

The last name was Kagan Mike, the last name.

It was more of a secular summer camp. And his justification was pretty much what you said.
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 17 2010 at 04:09
Originally posted by CinemaZebra CinemaZebra wrote:

DAMMIT why are we talking about religion again? No one's opinions are going to be changed so it's pointless and pretentious. Why can't we talk about radiator-shaped noodles?
The same is true of any internet discussion regardless of the topic - just look at the "For my Librarian friends" thread or all the millions of "who's the gratest..." polls.
 
Anyway, if you're going to discuss radiator-shaped pasta you should at least use its Italian name: Radiatore.
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Points: 29630 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 17 2010 at 08:20
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by CinemaZebra CinemaZebra wrote:

DAMMIT why are we talking about religion again? No one's opinions are going to be changed so it's pointless and pretentious. Why can't we talk about radiator-shaped noodles?
The same is true of any internet discussion regardless of the topic - just look at the "For my Librarian friends" thread or all the millions of "who's the gratest..." polls.
 
Anyway, if you're going to discuss radiator-shaped pasta you should at least use its Italian name: Radiatore.

And the Liberian friends...
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Equality 7-2521 View Drop Down
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Points: 15784 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 17 2010 at 09:08
Originally posted by Mr ProgFreak Mr ProgFreak wrote:

 
 And at the same time, I can tell you from first hand experience that most Catholics that I've met have never heard of these ideas. 

I've never met a Catholic who hasn't heard these ideas Confused
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Points: 5195 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 17 2010 at 09:14
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Originally posted by Mr ProgFreak Mr ProgFreak wrote:



Your text said that one of the conditions for salvation is seeking God. I'm not doing that. Now, please, I ask you: Might I be disqualified from achieving salvation?
 
I don't know what God's plans are neither I can talk ex cathedra...I'm not 100% sure  if I'm a candidate for salvation myself, so I can't talk about you.



That sounds more and more agnostic to me ... it's like you're saying that you're not sure how God wants us to behave - what he wants us to do.

Originally posted by Iván Iván wrote:



Originally posted by Mr ProgFreak Mr ProgFreak wrote:

But maybe modern Catholicism has simply become liberal and moderate to the point where it doesn't have an opinion about anything anymore. Couldn't we say then that it's becoming more and more pointless?

By the contrary, we have opinions only that Catholicism becoming more and more tolerant, and I believe that is good for us, probably not for fundamentalist atheists who rather see religions guided by guys like Fallwel, Bob Jones or Phelps, because it's easier to discredit those bigots.

The more tolerant religions are, the less arguments that guys like Dawkins have..

And no, it's not pointless, we are sure of our faith, but I don't see the point of going there threatening people with hell if they don't turn into Catholics, because those converts are usually not real Catholics, religion is not fear, it's faith

I see a contradiction here - on the one hand you say that you're sure of your faith, but on the other hand you say that all the other religion may be right here - the main point is to believe in (a) God. Now are you sure that the Catholic way is the right path, or could it be any other?

Originally posted by Iván Iván wrote:


But please, answer me something, if your complain is against intolerant religious people why do you bother when we show signs of tolerance?

Or is it that you will use any behaviour to attack us? We don't attack your disbelief because we are sure of our beliefs...Are you so insecure that you need to discredit us to feel you are right?

You seem to perceive any form of criticism as an attack. You claim to be sure of your belief, yet you approve of most other religions and even Atheism, even though these contradict the Catholic ways - They can't all be true. What bothers me is that you're holding on to Catholicism so fervently, while at the same time arguing like an Agnostic. And when I mention it, you come after me like I insulted you personally.

Originally posted by Iván Iván wrote:


Originally posted by Mr ProgFreak Mr ProgFreak wrote:

  And at the same time, I can tell you from first hand experience that most Catholics that I've met have never heard of these ideas. That must be because they get their religious education as kids, from preachers, and do not actively read 1000+ page catechisms.

In first place, you only have second hand experience, because you are not a Catholic, your opinion is based on hearsay, while we are inside.

People don't know this things, because most of us have been taught before the changes of Vatican II were really known and by traditional priests who were not ready for the change, but the more time it passes, ,more people will be accepting his teachings as their truth.

And about the Catechism, I haven't read it complete, I consult it when I have a doubt on a specific issue like in this case.
Iván


Can you summarize the tenets of your faith in a few sentences? Like what are the most important things that this (IMO) excessively liberal/moderate version of Catholicism requires you to believe.
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Points: 5195 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 17 2010 at 09:16
Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Originally posted by Mr ProgFreak Mr ProgFreak wrote:

 
 And at the same time, I can tell you from first hand experience that most Catholics that I've met have never heard of these ideas. 

I've never met a Catholic who hasn't heard these ideas Confused


That Atheists may get into heaven? I truly don't know any Catholic who would agree on that one. Except for those "Catholics on paper" who never go to church anyway, except for weddings and funerals. Obviously we're talking about people who have thought about the matter and call themselves (devout) Catholics.
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Points: 15784 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 17 2010 at 09:56
I went to 14 years of Catholic school which is the experience I speak from. I may not identify as a Catholic, but I certainly have enough knowledge of the faith. 
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Points: 5195 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 17 2010 at 10:08
^ So, from your knowledge, do the tenets of Catholicism suggest that people who do not "seek God" are likely to get into heaven?
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Points: 6802 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 17 2010 at 10:41
Originally posted by Mr ProgFreak Mr ProgFreak wrote:

Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Originally posted by Mr ProgFreak Mr ProgFreak wrote:

 
 And at the same time, I can tell you from first hand experience that most Catholics that I've met have never heard of these ideas. 

I've never met a Catholic who hasn't heard these ideas Confused


That Atheists may get into heaven? I truly don't know any Catholic who would agree on that one. Except for those "Catholics on paper" who never go to church anyway, except for weddings and funerals. Obviously we're talking about people who have thought about the matter and call themselves (devout) Catholics.
 
Remember that God is mercy, I think Iván was saying that WE are not "saints" and we depend of the mercy of God to go to heaven, but this misteries of who goes "up" and who goes "down" are not revealed to any man, we can only know what Jesus told about the kingdom.
 
I think no man can say for sure who is going to heaven properly, what our church said (and it is because the 2000 years of study and tradition) that those who "seek for God" will have the chance of salvation, so, maybe atheists in general can't fit in that description. Now, remember that God is God and he/she/it can decide whatever he wants, so I think no one of us can say it for sure.
 
Understand now?
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Points: 19535 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 17 2010 at 10:58
Originally posted by Mr ProgFreak Mr ProgFreak wrote:



That sounds more and more agnostic to me ... it's like you're saying that you're not sure how God wants us to behave - what he wants us to do.
 
Agnostic?...I would say tolerant.

I used to be very radical and member of a very radical Catholic group (Even more radical than Opus Dei), but Father Francesco Interdonato Ratti told me when I was going to Jerusalem, to show respect for other religions, that they all search for God even if they are not in the truth.

When I was going to Jerusalem, he asked me to pray in the Holy Tomb Church, as well as in the Mosque and the Synagogue, because even when he believed our perception of God was the correct one, we all pray to the God of Abraham.

Yes, we will always believe Catholic Church is the universal truth, but they are all seeking for God as well as us.

That's not agnosticism, that's called respect.

And yes I know how God wants us to behave:

Quote

Matthew 22: 34 - 40.- Hearing that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, the Pharisees got together. One of them, an expert in the law, tested him with this question: Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”

Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’his is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

That's what he asks of us, but I don't know if in his mercy he will condemn those who partially obey this two Commandments. 

I see a contradiction here - on the one hand you say that you're sure of your faith, but on the other hand you say that all the other religion may be right here - the main point is to believe in (a) God. Now are you sure that the Catholic way is the right path, or could it be any other?

The text of Lumen Gentium is clear

1.- The Catholic Church is the true one, that's clear word by word

2.- All the Christian religions also seek for Jesus, so they are also seeking for the same God

3.- Non Christians search for God and they are not to be blamed for not being taught about the true religion and God understand this, but they also have to be honest to their own conscience

Even more 

 
Quote
 
 
The "Declaration on the relation of the Church to non-Christian religions: Nostra Aetate," (1965) is one of three declarations of Vatican II. 8 It states that:
 
bullet "[The Christian] God made the whole human race to live over the face of the earth."
bullet "The Catholic Church rejects nothing that is true and holy in these [non-Christian] religions."
bullet "God holds the Jews most dear for the sake of their Fathers..."
bullet "...the [Roman Catholic] Church is the new People of God..."
bullet "...the Church has always held and holds now, Christ underwent His passion and death freely, because of the sins of men and out of infinite love, in order that all may reach salvation."
 
So, eve when we believe we are the people of God, Christ gave his life for all humans, not only for us  

[You seem to perceive any form of criticism as an attack. You claim to be sure of your belief, yet you approve of most other religions and even Atheism, even though these contradict the Catholic ways - They can't all be true. What bothers me is that you're holding on to Catholicism so fervently, while at the same time arguing like an Agnostic. And when I mention it, you come after me like I insulted you personally.

I don't approve Atheism, simply I don't judge atheists
 
Quote Luke 6:37.- "Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven.
 
That's why I don't dare to take the place of God and talk about your fate.
 
Can you summarize the tenets of your faith in a few sentences? Like what are the most important things that this (IMO) excessively liberal/moderate version of Catholicism requires you to believe.
 
Funny, if we are fundamentalists we are wrong, if we are tolerant also, Mike, you only search for excuses to attack us.
 
BTW: I already summarazed my faith uin the first paragraph, but to make it celar, there it comes again
Quote

Matthew 22: 37 - 40.- “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’his is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

Seems very simple, but it's harder than you believe.
 
Iván


Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - July 18 2010 at 00:06
            
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Points: 10387 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 17 2010 at 11:09
last prayer of an agnostic: "oh God, if there is a God, have mercy upon my eternal soul, if I have an eternal soul" Wink


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Points: 19535 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 17 2010 at 11:30
Originally posted by BaldJean BaldJean wrote:

last prayer of an agnostic: "oh God, if there is a God, have mercy upon my eternal soul, if I have an eternal soul" Wink
 
This reminds me, some years ago we had a strong car accident and one of my friends (a radical atheist) was bleeding (Superficial cut in the forehead, but bleeding as a Thanksgiving turkey) and was a bit dizzy because of the impact.
 
The first words I heard from him  were "God please save me", the guy was ok, and when we went to the hospital (he had 10 stitches, that was all), he denied everythoing. LOL
 
It was quite funny.
 
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Points: 6802 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 17 2010 at 11:36
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Originally posted by BaldJean BaldJean wrote:

last prayer of an agnostic: "oh God, if there is a God, have mercy upon my eternal soul, if I have an eternal soul" Wink
 
This reminds me, some years ago we had a strong car accident and one of my friends (a radical atheist) was bleeding (Superficial cut in the forehead, but bleeding as a Thanksgiving turkey) and was a bit dizzy because of the impact.
 
The first words I heard from him  were "God please save me", the guy was ok, and when we went to the hospital (he had 10 stitches, that was all), he denied everythoing. LOL
 
It was quite funny.
 
Iván
Yes, I have seen some things like that. I think it's just a rational shield to not accept that there's someone beyond of us, when they see it almost over they feel afraid to trust in that invisible person... For me is wonderful to know there's someone there, for them, that fill them with fear...
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Points: 19535 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 17 2010 at 12:33
Originally posted by Mr ProgFreak Mr ProgFreak wrote:

^ So, from your knowledge, do the tenets of Catholicism suggest that people who do not "seek God" are likely to get into heaven?
 
Well according to our doctrine not....But that wouldnt be a punishment  for you, "au contraire" a reward, because you have stated:
 
Originally posted by Mr ProgFreak Mr ProgFreak wrote:

^ Don't get me started on that theory. In any case, I wouldn't want to spend eternity with that vengeful sinister control freak anyway. I'd rather be with Lucy! Wink
 
So if you are not saved, God will be granting you the reward you ask for so vehemently. Wink
 
Iván
 
 
 
 


Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - July 17 2010 at 12:34
            
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Points: 5195 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 17 2010 at 12:39
^ Thanks! In case hell exists (which I don't believe for a second) I would actually want to go there even for the music alone - you know that I'm into extreme metal.Evil Smile
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