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JJLehto View Drop Down
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Points: 34550 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 16 2010 at 23:42
Well that's nothing new LOL
Being a political/debate enthusiast (meh Ill go with ass instead...)

Im used to it. However, I have grown tired of explaining differences and finer points, especially to dumb people (no one this site of course fits that) so often I just leave it as "I believe in doing in whats right, if I am a socialist than fine"
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The T View Drop Down
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Points: 17493 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 16 2010 at 23:15
^That's what I think. But people here deem everythig that is not 100% pro-full-free market "socialism".
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JJLehto View Drop Down
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Points: 34550 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 16 2010 at 23:12
Hence why Social Democracy and not Socialism...is the ideal system. For others reasons as well.
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Points: 17493 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 16 2010 at 23:03
^Strange. You always end up blaming one side for all problems and characterizing the others as just doing things because they can. Great morals in my opinion. "if you can do it, do it".

I see your point though. It's pretty consistent with your thoughts. The demonization of those in government, never those in the private end of things. Curiously, countries like the nordic ones have never been known as deep clusters of corruption, snd they have plenty of social policies there.

I can't deny some reason to the argument though. My country and Venezuela are an example. Corruption runs rampant because people's morals are corrupted and the government is, in those cases, TRULY too big.
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Points: 15784 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 16 2010 at 22:49
Originally posted by manofmystery manofmystery wrote:

Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:


Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:


Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

What one group? Well let's make it more than one: wall street, the banks, the big corporations who lobby everything they want into law...
 
Then you have a problem with corrupt politicians, not corporations.And look at this "D"-list!
It's that supposed to discourage me or show me something I don't know? I'm no democrat Robert. I have preferred them over the GOP and the tea drinking guys but they are sh*t too. They are not left enough for my taste.
You didn't address what I said.You expressed a problem with corporations, and I showed your problem is really with corrupt politicians, not corporations.
Ok. But the guy giving the money is as much of a piece of sh*t as the guy receiving it, or no?
 
 
You are missing something very basic: the ones giving them the money only have so much say because the ones recieving have too much power.  If you want corporations to have less say in policy then government must have less say in the market.  
Big government breeds your hated big corporations, and less choice, by making the cost of running a business go up (through regulation, taxation, etc).  When only the largest producers can afford to operate within the government imposed confines then only the largest producers will.

It's so refreshing to hear someone besides me say that.
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Epignosis View Drop Down
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Points: 32524 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 16 2010 at 20:28
Originally posted by manofmystery manofmystery wrote:

If you want corporations to have less say in policy then government must have less say in the market. 


Now that's a good point.  Sounds fair to me.  Approve
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Points: 4335 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 16 2010 at 20:05
Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:


Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:


Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

What one group? Well let's make it more than one: wall street, the banks, the big corporations who lobby everything they want into law...
 
Then you have a problem with corrupt politicians, not corporations.And look at this "D"-list!
It's that supposed to discourage me or show me something I don't know? I'm no democrat Robert. I have preferred them over the GOP and the tea drinking guys but they are sh*t too. They are not left enough for my taste.
You didn't address what I said.You expressed a problem with corporations, and I showed your problem is really with corrupt politicians, not corporations.
Ok. But the guy giving the money is as much of a piece of sh*t as the guy receiving it, or no?
 
 
You are missing something very basic: the ones giving them the money only have so much say because the ones recieving have too much power.  If you want corporations to have less say in policy then government must have less say in the market.  
Big government breeds your hated big corporations, and less choice, by making the cost of running a business go up (through regulation, taxation, etc).  When only the largest producers can afford to operate within the government imposed confines then only the largest producers will.


Time always wins.
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Epignosis View Drop Down
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Points: 32524 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 16 2010 at 07:40
Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:


Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:


Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:


Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

What one group? Well let's make it more than one: wall street, the banks, the big corporations who lobby everything they want into law...
 
Then you have a problem with corrupt politicians, not corporations.And look at this "D"-list!
It's that supposed to discourage me or show me something I don't know? I'm no democrat Robert. I have preferred them over the GOP and the tea drinking guys but they are sh*t too. They are not left enough for my taste.
You didn't address what I said.You expressed a problem with corporations, and I showed your problem is really with corrupt politicians, not corporations.
Ok. But the guy giving the money is as much of a piece of sh*t as the guy receiving it, or no?
No.I can give my money to whomever I please, and for whatever reason.A representative of the people doesn't have to accept it.It's called integrity.
So if a cop stops me and wants to take me in for, say, running a red light, I can offer him money and not feel bad about it? Good. I wouldn't do it anyway because I also have some integrity.
What you're saying is, basically, the famous words of that good movie all over again, the phrase that governs our current economic system: greed is good.


Bribing an officer is illegal.  Donating to a political campaign is not.

That's why it's up to the politician to maintain authority buy not selling out his ideals to the highest bidder.
https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays
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JJLehto View Drop Down
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Points: 34550 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 16 2010 at 00:13
Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

By the way, a question: do you know if this libertarianism thing is a US-only phenomenon or are there currents that promote it abroad?


Honestly, I doubt it.
Perhaps strongest sentiment is in the US but it cant be solely our thing.
Also keep in mind "classic liberalism" is what we now call "libertarian" and I believe classic liberalism is rooted in Europe.
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JJLehto View Drop Down
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Points: 34550 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 16 2010 at 00:04
Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:


Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:


Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

What one group? Well let's make it more than one: wall street, the banks, the big corporations who lobby everything they want into law...
 
Then you have a problem with corrupt politicians, not corporations.And look at this "D"-list!
It's that supposed to discourage me or show me something I don't know? I'm no democrat Robert. I have preferred them over the GOP and the tea drinking guys but they are sh*t too. They are not left enough for my taste.
You didn't address what I said.You expressed a problem with corporations, and I showed your problem is really with corrupt politicians, not corporations.
Ok. But the guy giving the money is as much of a piece of sh*t as the guy receiving it, or no?


No.

I can give my money to whomever I please, and for whatever reason.

A representative of the people doesn't have to accept it.

It's called integrity.


Agreed. Too bad no one has it. And party has nothing to do with it. I am more convinced it is universal...
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The T View Drop Down
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Points: 17493 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 16 2010 at 00:02
Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:


Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:


Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:


Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

What one group? Well let's make it more than one: wall street, the banks, the big corporations who lobby everything they want into law...
 
Then you have a problem with corrupt politicians, not corporations.And look at this "D"-list!
It's that supposed to discourage me or show me something I don't know? I'm no democrat Robert. I have preferred them over the GOP and the tea drinking guys but they are sh*t too. They are not left enough for my taste.
You didn't address what I said.You expressed a problem with corporations, and I showed your problem is really with corrupt politicians, not corporations.
Ok. But the guy giving the money is as much of a piece of sh*t as the guy receiving it, or no?
No.I can give my money to whomever I please, and for whatever reason.A representative of the people doesn't have to accept it.It's called integrity.
So if a cop stops me and wants to take me in for, say, running a red light, I can offer him money and not feel bad about it? Good. I wouldn't do it anyway because I also have some integrity.
What you're saying is, basically, the famous words of that good movie all over again, the phrase that governs our current economic system: greed is good.
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The T View Drop Down
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Points: 17493 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 15 2010 at 23:59
Originally posted by JJLehto JJLehto wrote:

... we're boned...
Disagree with that I can't.
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Epignosis View Drop Down
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Points: 32524 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 15 2010 at 23:58
Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:


Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:


Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

What one group? Well let's make it more than one: wall street, the banks, the big corporations who lobby everything they want into law...
 
Then you have a problem with corrupt politicians, not corporations.And look at this "D"-list!
It's that supposed to discourage me or show me something I don't know? I'm no democrat Robert. I have preferred them over the GOP and the tea drinking guys but they are sh*t too. They are not left enough for my taste.
You didn't address what I said.You expressed a problem with corporations, and I showed your problem is really with corrupt politicians, not corporations.
Ok. But the guy giving the money is as much of a piece of sh*t as the guy receiving it, or no?


No.

I can give my money to whomever I please, and for whatever reason.

A representative of the people doesn't have to accept it.

It's called integrity.
https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays
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The T View Drop Down
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Points: 17493 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 15 2010 at 23:57
^Not a bad point. But it proves again that good people get discouraged and don't run, even for these wrong reasons.
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Points: 8368 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 15 2010 at 23:55
Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

^There's no way to do it, the way this system works. Yes, vote them out they'll say. How? They have the money for campaigns and ads, the guys that may be better don't.
 


The assumption that he who spends the most wins elections has been proven false tons of times. Look at Obama. As mouch as I dislike him as a president, he had almost zero money starting out, but had an extremely good fundraising team. Look at Alvin Greene, a guy who didn't campaign and didn't advertise and still won. "I don't have enough money" is often an excuse not to run rather than a real reason.
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JJLehto View Drop Down
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Points: 34550 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 15 2010 at 23:53
Originally posted by thellama73 thellama73 wrote:

Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

By the way, a question: do you know if this libertarianism thing is a US-only phenomenon or are there currents that promote it abroad?


Much libertarian economic theory came out of Austria (the so called Austrian School) initiated by F. A. Hayek. I think the Austrians don't feel that way so much anymore though. OI have also heard thtat a few southeast Asian countries are pretty Libertarian.


Well economically, hell yes! Are they socially? I honestly don't know. I know singapore has those crazy strict laws that I'd say most view as infringing on personal rights.
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JJLehto View Drop Down
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Points: 34550 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 15 2010 at 23:52
Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

^There's no way to do it, the way this system works. Yes, vote them out they'll say. How? They have the money for campaigns and ads, the guys that may be better don't.

Sadly, this wolrd doesn't exist any more, but good where times when people dreamt of revolution.


Well, as much as I cant technically disagree...I am not a revolutionary. Neither are, well much of the population. We're stuck. And since social democracy will never make its way here, (I was hoping, dreaming that a slow slide there was gunna start....but I doubt it) we're boned...
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The T View Drop Down
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Points: 17493 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 15 2010 at 23:50
Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:


Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:


Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

What one group? Well let's make it more than one: wall street, the banks, the big corporations who lobby everything they want into law...
 
Then you have a problem with corrupt politicians, not corporations.And look at this "D"-list!
It's that supposed to discourage me or show me something I don't know? I'm no democrat Robert. I have preferred them over the GOP and the tea drinking guys but they are sh*t too. They are not left enough for my taste.
You didn't address what I said.You expressed a problem with corporations, and I showed your problem is really with corrupt politicians, not corporations.
Ok. But the guy giving the money is as much of a piece of sh*t as the guy receiving it, or no?
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Points: 8368 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 15 2010 at 23:49
Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

By the way, a question: do you know if this libertarianism thing is a US-only phenomenon or are there currents that promote it abroad?


Much libertarian economic theory came out of Austria (the so called Austrian School) initiated by F. A. Hayek. I think the Austrians don't feel that way so much anymore though. OI have also heard thtat a few southeast Asian countries are pretty Libertarian.
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The T View Drop Down
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Points: 17493 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 15 2010 at 23:49
^There's no way to do it, the way this system works. Yes, vote them out they'll say. How? They have the money for campaigns and ads, the guys that may be better don't.

Sadly, this word doesn't exist any more, but good where times when people dreamt of revolution.

Edited by The T - July 15 2010 at 23:58
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