For my Libertarian friends

My interest in politics (which is not as big as yours, though is much bigger than most people I know) was largely influenced by my environment. I became a full-fledged communist for a year or so when I was 19, then I realized I was extremely wrong . I idolized free market for a while, then I realized it could be even worse. 

Equality 7-2521 wrote: The T wrote: Equality 7-2521 wrote: The T wrote: Equality 7-2521 wrote: So gravity used to be inversely proportional the the cube of the radius? Closed systems used to decrease in entropy? The Supply Curve was a circle? Root 2 used to be rational? If the laws of science are so fickle as our laws of government we have a problem.  You're very closed-minded now Equality. Don't equate laws of physics with laws of economics which have direct relation with SOCIAL changes... Please, second time in a day.  If you really think economics of the 1800s apply today, and these laws never change, then I guess what was real in the middle ages could also be applied today... Go figure.  You're being ignorant more than I'm being closed minded. Although economic behavior changes, the overall laws which are the foundation of our analysis do not. Otherwise it could hardly be called a science.  Could you give me an example of how SOCIAL change affects a fixture of economics? Ok, laws are constant, I see where we are having the problem. Laws are constant, but the people and society you're going to apply it on or study with are NOT. You're not naive Equality (funny name for you now that I think of it - are you a socialist at heart?)  so you know you're applying logic and even semantics to answer a question that has other variables. Yes, I give you this: laws don't change. But societies do, and what was successful back then may not be successful today. You know what we're saying Shields, you're just pretending we're saying something else.  EDIT: by the way, before you waste time and finger skin, I DO know what your nickname means...  That's not the case at all. My point is still correct and valid. His statement was a non-sensical strawman argument against capitalism. He should provide some evidence as to why those conditions didn't occur when we had the freest markets in our history. I don't see how societal issues have an bearing on this argument. If they do; please demonstrate how. EDIT: I used to be a socialist actually.

I guessed that far... 

The T wrote: Epignosis wrote: Socialism never promotes equality- only a caricature of it. It DOES promote equality. All people are equal. That's the main point.

But they're not.  That's the problem.

The T wrote: Pat (Padraic), when I say "all people are equal" i'm not saying they are right now, I'm saying that was one of the goals, postulates.

We might be saying the same thing:  everyone can never be equal (we're all born with different abilities), but a just society is one that grants every equal opportunity.

I'd like to think that's a goal of our society - and where we fall short of that is where there is room for improvement, and discussion.

^Equality which gets trumped the moment those who are getting ahead make the rules and control the game in such a way that the very competition and freedom of choice that you benefited from is gone.

The equality of communism is impossible. Yes. Your equality in time has lead to almost the same thing communism brought about: one group controlling everything and lots of people making things happen for them.

I prefer to put a stop to that.

Edited by The T - July 15 2010 at 23:08

The T wrote: ^Equality which gets trumped the moment those who are getting ahead make the rules and control the game in such a way that the very competition and freedom of choice that you benefited from is gone. The equality of communism is impossible. Yes. Your equality in time has lead to almost the same thing communism brought about: one group controlling everything and lots of people making things happen for them. I prefer to put a stop to that.

I don't think it's fair to say that one group controls everything, at least not in the United States. Small businesses make up a huge portion of our GDP, and employ many millions of people. It's fairly easy to start your own business from the ground up, at least relative to other countries. If you don't want to work for the man, you don't have to. All you need is a dream and a little capital to get going.

By the way, a question: do you know if this libertarianism thing is a US-only phenomenon or are there currents that promote it abroad?

As nice as it can be, easier said than done, (I assume you realize) llama.
It is easier than in most countries granted, but not exactly a cake walk.

As for small business' I hope it stays that way. To quote hank hill, (in regards to wal mart's influence)
"I think they only place there is still a main street is in Disney World"

Ive honestly stopped thinking about the future. I've already complained about all this, but long story short:
Someone convince me we are not f*cked.
Manufacturing jobs have been getting jettisoned out of the country/replaced by robots. All jobs are going bye bye. More will be made, but enough to close the gap? I highly, highly doubt it. And how long anyway before those are sent away?

Earlier Rob said there will always be jobs because: we need people to fix our sh*t, to make our food, etc etc
Well....hate to be picky about work...but if you've worked at company 30+ years is that suitable? And forget pride, can you sustain a family living in expensive suburbia doing that work? And what about us youth? Is our future limited to wal mart?? If I get a decent job can I advance at all/will it exist in 5 years?

I know the cycle and all that, and this is what happens with technology and globalization but in terms of real life, I think this country is currently f*cked. I hope they know English in Finland!


Edited by JJLehto - July 15 2010 at 23:26

The T wrote: What one group? Well let's make it more than one: wall street, the banks, the big corporations who lobby everything they want into law...

Then you have a problem with corrupt politicians, not corporations.

And look at this "D"-list!