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Joined: May 29 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 8368
Posted: July 15 2010 at 14:32
Mr ProgFreak wrote:
I wonder whether you could enjoy watching Monty Python's Life of Brian. Actually I don't wonder - I had no part in making it or posting it somewhere, so I guess it would not offend you.
But now you've mentioned it in a thread, so that will probably spoil his enjoyment of it.
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19535
Posted: July 15 2010 at 15:46
Mr ProgFreak wrote:
I wonder whether you could enjoy watching Monty Python's Life of Brian. Actually I don't wonder - I had no part in making it or posting it somewhere, so I guess it would not offend you.
It doesn't matter who posted it Mike, again, we don't care about your opinion as much as you believe.
The problem is that this caricature is presenting a vengeful, arrogant, egomaniac and insecure God who needs of our praises to be happy, just as many try to paint the image of God we have.
Life of Brian is funny and their intention is to make comedy, Monthy Python are irreverent with everybody, this caricature you posted was created to misinform about what we believe in.
The God in which at least 66% of Christians (Catholics, Orthodox and Anglicans at least) believe is a God that won't condemn a good person for not being Catholic or even Christian.
Joined: September 17 2009
Location: Madison, WI
Status: Offline
Points: 16122
Posted: July 15 2010 at 21:24
Frankly, if all else fails and I get pushed to the very last line of defense, I like to bring out the old ontological truth proposed by René Descartes: Believing in a nonexistent god is harmless, but not believing in an existent god would have very grave consequences.
Joined: November 08 2008
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 5195
Posted: July 16 2010 at 01:20
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Mr ProgFreak wrote:
I wonder whether you could enjoy watching Monty Python's Life of Brian. Actually I don't wonder - I had no part in making it or posting it somewhere, so I guess it would not offend you.
It doesn't matter who posted it Mike, again, we don't care about your opinion as much as you believe.
The problem is that this caricature is presenting a vengeful, arrogant, egomaniac and insecure God who needs of our praises to be happy, just as many try to paint the image of God we have.
Life of Brian is funny and their intention is to make comedy, Monthy Python are irreverent with everybody, this caricature you posted was created to misinform about what we believe in.
The God in which at least 66% of Christians (Catholics, Orthodox and Anglicans at least) believe is a God that won't condemn a good person for not being Catholic or even Christian.
Iván
In that case I think your particular version of religion should be renamed, since it has absolutely nothing in common with what Christianity is supposed to be about. As soon as you come to believe that a belief in Christ is no longer required, where's the bloody point in calling yourself a Christian?
And by the way: In the early days of the church there were fractions who thought that good deeds were important - eventually they were called heretics, and the orthodox point of view was that not good deeds, but belief in Christ was the ticket to salvation. Since then believing in Jesus Christ has become the foundation of the religion. If today there's nothing left in that, and moderate Christians don't really believe in heaven and hell anymore, or that Jesus Christ is the key to salvation - then why not throw away the good book, call it a relict of pre-medieval times and focus on good deeds 100%?
Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 17493
Posted: July 16 2010 at 10:19
Mike, you know I tend to agree more with you than with religious people on these matters, but you could improve these conversations with religious people a lot by not pretending to know more about their religion than they do. Specially those who have deep knowledge of it as Ivan.
Joined: July 04 2009
Location: Guatemala
Status: Offline
Points: 6802
Posted: July 16 2010 at 10:41
Mr ProgFreak wrote:
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Mr ProgFreak wrote:
I wonder whether you could enjoy watching Monty Python's Life of Brian. Actually I don't wonder - I had no part in making it or posting it somewhere, so I guess it would not offend you.
It doesn't matter who posted it Mike, again, we don't care about your opinion as much as you believe.
The problem is that this caricature is presenting a vengeful, arrogant, egomaniac and insecure God who needs of our praises to be happy, just as many try to paint the image of God we have.
Life of Brian is funny and their intention is to make comedy, Monthy Python are irreverent with everybody, this caricature you posted was created to misinform about what we believe in.
The God in which at least 66% of Christians (Catholics, Orthodox and Anglicans at least) believe is a God that won't condemn a good person for not being Catholic or even Christian.
Iván
In that case I think your particular version of religion should be renamed, since it has absolutely nothing in common with what Christianity is supposed to be about. As soon as you come to believe that a belief in Christ is no longer required, where's the bloody point in calling yourself a Christian?
And by the way: In the early days of the church there were fractions who thought that good deeds were important - eventually they were called heretics, and the orthodox point of view was that not good deeds, but belief in Christ was the ticket to salvation. Since then believing in Jesus Christ has become the foundation of the religion. If today there's nothing left in that, and moderate Christians don't really believe in heaven and hell anymore, or that Jesus Christ is the key to salvation - then why not throw away the good book, call it a relict of pre-medieval times and focus on good deeds 100%?
Jesus, Mike, you really don't get anything so far. You think you can say what Christianity is all about? The fact that the random review of the Bible and some video that you have check are enough to tell Iván or whatever person what OUR religion supposed to be is really pretentious and ridiculous. Many times before, most of the catholics and other christians have tell you time and time again that God won't condemn a good person for not being catholic or Christian.
I think your problem is that you think that everything is pushed by the leaders when in fact, there's no such problem. I'm christian because I believe Jesus is the son of God and he save us from our own sins. If somebody doesn't believe that, well, God will oversee this because God is mercyfull and it's up to him to be saved, just like Rob said before, no one can be converted if Jesus doesn't want to, so, they maybe doesn't know the figure of Jesus but they practiced a good living, which is at the end of the day: Love. But again Mike, your arguments are getting every day more and more unnaccurate about everybody else believings...
Change the program inside... Stay in silence is a crime.
Joined: November 08 2008
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 5195
Posted: July 16 2010 at 11:02
The T wrote:
Mike, you know I tend to agree more with you than with religious people on these matters, but you could improve these conversations with religious people a lot by not pretending to know more about their religion than they do. Specially those who have deep knowledge of it as Ivan.
Well, I'm quite certain that I'm correct when I point out that Christianity is largely based on the faith in Jesus Christ. It's kind of obvious ... now, when Iván says that the God he believes in would not think less of people who don't believe in him or his son (which, in orthodox Christianity, is essentially the same), then I feel that I'm qualified to point out that in my humble opinion this pretty much negates the underlying principle of Christianity.
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19535
Posted: July 16 2010 at 15:31
Mr ProgFreak wrote:
In that case I think your particular version of religion should be renamed, since it has absolutely nothing in common with what Christianity is supposed to be about. As soon as you come to believe that a belief in Christ is no longer required, where's the bloody point in calling yourself a Christian?
Yes, I have a particular version of Christianity named Catholicism, and it's 2,000 years old, I have explained it hundreds of times, but I'll do it again step by step, even when I know you understood it the first time:
1.-
The "Dogmatic Constitution on the Church - Lumen Gentium" (1964)
"The Catholic Church professes that it is the one, holy catholic and apostolic Church of Christ; this it does not and could not deny. But in its Constitution the Church now solemnly acknowledges that the Holy Ghost is truly active in the churches and communities separated from itself. To these other Christian Churches the Catholic Church is bound in many ways: through reverence for God's word in the Scriptures; through the fact of baptism; through other sacraments which they recognize."
We believe the Catholic Church is the truth one, but the Holy Spirit is present in other Christian religions.
2.-
The "Dogmatic Constitution on the Church - Lumen Gentium" (1964)
5. The non-Christian may not be blamed for his ignorance of Christ and his Church; salvation is open to him also, if he seeks God sincerely and if he follows the commands of his conscience, for through this means the Holy Ghost acts upon all men; this divine action is not confined within the limited boundaries of the visible Church."
Now, non Christians can't be blamed for having been raised in other faiths, so by exception non Christians who seek for God and follow the commands of their conscience can also be saved because it's not their responsibility.
In other words, God doesn't condemn any person who without fault or sin, doesn't believe in him, but we are Christians and Catholics who believe our faith is the truth one, that's the point of being called Christians.
Mr ProgFreak wrote:
And by the way: In the early days of the church there were fractions who thought that good deeds were important - eventually they were called heretics, and the orthodox point of view was that not good deeds, but belief in Christ was the ticket to salvation. Since then believing in Jesus Christ has become the foundation of the religion. If today there's nothing left in that, and moderate Christians don't really believe in heaven and hell anymore, or that Jesus Christ is the key to salvation - then why not throw away the good book, call it a relict of pre-medieval times and focus on good deeds 100%?
.
What happened in the early days is part of the past, the Pope with his authority clarified this dogmas, and yes, we believe Chris is the key of salvation, but those that without fault have been raised on other faiths, can't be blamed, that would be like God punishing a Sub-Saharan African for having been born in Sub-Sahara Africa where Catholicism and Christianity are not so expanded.
Hope you get it once and for all, even when I'm sure you will invent contradictions.
The funny thing is that if we said that non Catholics will burn in hell for ever, you will call us fanatics and sectarians, but if our position is tolerant, you accuse us of contradictions.
You are not ready to accept us being tolerant, because that would weaken your hatred against our beliefs, it's easier to attack intolerant fanatics than tolerant and rational religious people, and if you don't find arguments, you travel back in time to find something for what the Pope has already asked pardon.
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19535
Posted: July 16 2010 at 15:34
Mr ProgFreak wrote:
Well, I'm quite certain that I'm correct when I point out that Christianity is largely based on the faith in Jesus Christ. It's kind of obvious ... now, when Iván says that the God he believes in would not think less of people who don't believe in him or his son (which, in orthodox Christianity, is essentially the same), then I feel that I'm qualified to point out that in my humble opinion this pretty much negates the underlying principle of Christianity.
That's because you are judging God by your own need of acceptance, God doesn'tneed us to praise him, we praise him to thank for everything.
Joined: November 08 2008
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 5195
Posted: July 16 2010 at 15:52
^^ If you said that non-Catholics burn in hell, I would call you consistent with the traditions of your church.Well, I do not seek God. Will you now at least grant me the possibility
of hell?
Joined: February 16 2006
Location: Pennsylvania
Status: Offline
Points: 31169
Posted: July 16 2010 at 15:59
In my mind I always believed hell to be simply the absence of God - so yes, you would be in hell, but since you don't believe in God you won't miss His presence.
Joined: November 08 2008
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 5195
Posted: July 16 2010 at 16:05
^ Don't get me started on that theory. In any case, I wouldn't want to spend eternity with that vengeful sinister control freak anyway. I'd rather be with Lucy!
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Mr ProgFreak wrote:
