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Dean View Drop Down
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 08 2010 at 19:47
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

One thing to bear in mind is that there are a few people here like Mike who have never experienced religious belief of any kind first-hand so they look at religious belief through completely different eyes than other "atheists" who were once believers such Micah or myself, or fulltime believers such as yourself and Iván. This outlook may appear as arrogance, but I don't think that it is.
 
Dean, I have never experienced atheism, but this doesn't allow me to say "Hey all the atheists have stupid beliefs", that would be disrespectful and arrogant.

But Mike seems to have the feeling that the more he insults us and mocks of our beliefs, the more easily he will convince others he owns the truth.

The real religious person or atheist is so sure of his belief doesn't need to insult all the others who don't agree with him.

We don't ask him to share our beliefs, but to show the same courtesy and respect we show his disbelief, you know how opposite our beliefs are Dean, but we never need to insult others to feel superior.

He behaves no different than the bigot from the Westboro Baptist Church who goes to a funeral of a gay kid to applaud because another freak is burning in hell, without any consideration, because he feels it's his divine right.

The WBC fanatic says "Hey I don't hate the kid, I hate what he was", Mike says "Religious people are not stupid, but all in what they believe is stupid"

Don't you see the flaw?

Iván

BTW: I'm not a fanatical Catholic, as a fact nobody that knows me would even imagine I'm a believer, I hardly go to mass or never tried to convince anybody, but when bigots attack our beliefs I feel the need to defend my religion and the right of every person to follow any religion or lack of religion they want.

Hey Iván, I'm just trying to keep the peace in my own inimitable way. However, I do think that likening Mike to the WBC is below the belt. If he behaved in any way approaching how they behave he would have been ejected from this site without a second thought. Mike is many things, but he is not a bigot, he has said repeatedly that he does not think that believers in religions are stupid people.
What?
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JLocke View Drop Down
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Points: 4900 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 08 2010 at 19:56
^ Exactly right.

Ivan, Mike isn't going to come to your funeral and cheer that you are dead. Nor is he going to say that he 'hated' anything about you-- your beliefs, or otherwise. Why not? Well, because of at least two things. One: He doesn't follow the doctrines of a religion that may be misinterpreted and lead to hate speech, and Two: he's not a vicious person. Few people actually are. To compare him to such people as the WBC is much more uncaring or heartless than anything you have accused him of doing thus far. 

Way to set the good example. Ermm


Edited by JLocke - July 08 2010 at 20:01
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Padraic View Drop Down
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Points: 31169 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 08 2010 at 20:12
When you feel your blood boiling, best thing you can do is quit this site completely.  There's benefits to having all sorts of topics discussed but sometimes this place can drive you mad.  It's easy to say "keep out of a thread" but for some reason it's hard, you get sucked into it.  Best thing I ever did was take a leave of absence, and even now I don't visit here as much as I used to.  Much healthier for me.

This post directed at no one in particular.


Edited by Padraic - July 08 2010 at 20:12
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Points: 4900 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 08 2010 at 20:15
Originally posted by Padraic Padraic wrote:



This post directed at no one in particular.

Then why post it? Something must have triggered this response from you. 
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Points: 19535 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 08 2010 at 20:21
Originally posted by JLocke JLocke wrote:

^ Exactly right.

Ivan, Mike isn't going to come to your funeral and cheer that you are dead. Nor is he going to say that he hated anything about you, your beliefs, or otherwise. Why not? Well, because of at least two things. One: He doesn't follow the doctrines of a religion that may be misinterpreted and lead to hate speech, and Two: he's not a vicious person. Few people actually are.
 
He won't go to my funeral, I plan to live at least 60 years more and he will be too old to take an inter continental plane. Wink..
 
I guess he's not a vicious person, but he's a fundamentalist atheist, he feels offended by our beliefs and feels in the right to attack us.
 
Learn something about us, our religious beliefs are an essential part if us, if somebody calls our beliefs stupid, he's calling us stupid, we are not talking about liking a band or being a fan of The Simpsons (Which by the way I am), we are talking about our most fundamental beliefs, the beliefs that guide our lifes.
 
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

[Hey Iván, I'm just trying to keep the peace in my own inimitable way. However, I do think that likening Mike to the WBC is below the belt. If he behaved in any way approaching how they behave he would have been ejected from this site without a second thought. Mike is many things, but he is not a bigot, he has said repeatedly that he does not think that believers in religions are stupid people.
 
No Dean, but he has said that everything we believe in is stupid.................Please, it's the same thing
 
He has called us delusional, ignorants (I quoted him on the other thread) fanatics and still you don't believe he's arrogant?
 
We ask respect for our beliefs, not to share them, not to agree wtih us, but to avoid denigrating our fundamental beliefs...Is that too much?
 
Originally posted by JLocke JLocke wrote:


I don't pretend to know anything, but if you truly believe what the bible says, then that means according to God's laws, he will send Mike to hell when he dies. Now isn't that true, or not? if you say no, then the whole point of Jesus' crucifixion goes out the window. 
 
If you knew a bit more, you will know that I'm a Catholic and that the "Sola Scriptura" concept doesn't work for us.
 
We believe that faith alone is not enough, and that good works may be enough for a person to reach salvation, Mike might be great person, I don't know him, so I can't say what's going to happen with his soul, even when he believes there's no soul.
 
And Jesus sacrifice won't go by the window for anything I can believe or stop believing, he accepted being crucified for all humans, not for Christians or Catholics alone, not even for the Jewishs alone being him a Jewish.
 
When people think they know what God's plans are, I see trouble.
 
Iván


Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - July 08 2010 at 20:26
            
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Points: 29630 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 08 2010 at 20:26
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Hey Iván, I'm just trying to keep the peace in my own inimitable way. However, I do think that likening Mike to the WBC is below the belt. If he behaved in any way approaching how they behave he would have been ejected from this site without a second thought. Mike is many things, but he is not a bigot, he has said repeatedly that he does not think that believers in religions are stupid people.

I stand behind both and of course myself which means I'm two faced or something.  The WBC can go to hell with a colorful poster as far as I am concerned.  I drive by a woman's health clinic that provides abortions as well.  In fair weather these old ladies show up and picket the clinic with grotesques placards.  I retaliate by shooting them the finger often when I'm driving by.  Leave these women alone.  If they're there for an abortion, it's as a last resort.  I don't think I'm going too off topic as these protesters are theists advocating for restricted freedoms.  Atheism as I have seen it doesn't typically advocate for the abolishment of freedoms to comply with certain religious standards but the advancement of reason.


Edited by Slartibartfast - July 08 2010 at 20:29
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Padraic View Drop Down
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Points: 31169 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 08 2010 at 20:26
Originally posted by JLocke JLocke wrote:

Originally posted by Padraic Padraic wrote:



This post directed at no one in particular.

Then why post it?

Because I can post whatever I want within the bounds of the forum rules.
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Points: 29630 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 08 2010 at 20:28
Originally posted by Padraic Padraic wrote:

Originally posted by JLocke JLocke wrote:

Originally posted by Padraic Padraic wrote:



This post directed at no one in particular.

Then why post it?

Because I can post whatever I want within the bounds of the forum rules.

And if you have something thoughtful to say, by all means post it...
There's no point of getting bent over people who hold and express contrary positions.
That's just not progressive.
By the way, did I manage to settle the controversy???LOL


Edited by Slartibartfast - July 08 2010 at 20:32
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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JLocke View Drop Down
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Points: 4900 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 08 2010 at 20:31
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

 
He won't go to my funeral, I plan to live at least 60 years more and he will be too old to take an inter continental plane. Wink..
 
I guess he's not a vicious person, but he's a fundamentalist atheist, he feels offended by our beliefs and feels in the right to attack us.
 
Learn something about us, our religious beliefs are an essential part if us, if somebody calls our beliefs stupid, he's calling us stupid, we are not talking about liking a band or being a fan of The Simpsons (Which by the way I am), we are talking about our most fundamental beliefs, the beliefs that guide our lifes.


If you choose to be personally offended by someone questioning your beliefs, that's your problem. It has nothing to do with anything else other than how you choose to handle something. 

 
Quote
If you knew a bit more, you will know that I'm a Catholic and that the "Sola Scriptura" concept doesn't work for us.
 
We believe that faith alone is not enough, and that good works may grant a person salvation, Mike might be great person, I don't know him, so I can't say what's going to happen with his soul, even when he believes there's no soul.
 
And Jesus sacrifice won't go by the window for anything I can bvelieve or stop believing, we simply can't even imagine what is his will.
 
When people think they know what God's plans are, I see trouble.
 
Iván

I have family members who are Catholics, and am well aware that you guys believe good works are a part of salvation (even though it, in opinion, goes completely against the whole concept of Jesus taking on the burden of our sins, but whatever). My point, however, was that you can use the 'I can't claim to know God's plan' escape route all you want; you still have your own personal opinion regarding Mike's likelihood to enter heaven, and whatever your opinion may be, it's based on however you choose to interpret your bible. 

To me, that makes you just as guilty of judgmental behavior as anybody else here, if not more. Because, regardless of the requirements, you do believe that some people are sent to hell while others get to go to heaven. And an Atheist is much more likely to go to the fiery place than a believer. That's just how it is. To accept such a notion, that not everyone is good enough to have eternal bliss, is a very judgmental thing to do.

Mike may think you have silly beliefs, but at least he doesn't think anyone deserves to burn forever. (And if you're like Rob, and don't believe in hell as a place of torture, then it's still the same argument. You believe some people deserve eternal life, while others deserve hell/non-existence/separation from God/etc.)


Edited by JLocke - July 08 2010 at 20:35
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Padraic View Drop Down
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Points: 31169 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 08 2010 at 20:33
Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

Originally posted by Padraic Padraic wrote:

Originally posted by JLocke JLocke wrote:

Originally posted by Padraic Padraic wrote:



This post directed at no one in particular.

Then why post it?

Because I can post whatever I want within the bounds of the forum rules.

And if you have something thoughtful to say, by all means post it...

I did - though I'll leave others to judge its value.  Those that feel it's without merit can easily skip it.

There's no point of getting bent over people who hold and express contrary positions.

Couldn't agree more - but it happens sometimes (to me).  We all have our shortcomings.

That's just not progressive.




Edited by Padraic - July 08 2010 at 20:33
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Points: 4900 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 08 2010 at 20:34
Originally posted by Padraic Padraic wrote:

Originally posted by JLocke JLocke wrote:

Originally posted by Padraic Padraic wrote:



This post directed at no one in particular.

Then why post it?

Because I can post whatever I want within the bounds of the forum rules.

Hmm. I assume from your attitude that the post was in fact directed towards me, seeing as how the response I got back was disproportionate to my initial, honest question. 
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Padraic View Drop Down
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Points: 31169 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 08 2010 at 20:36
Originally posted by JLocke JLocke wrote:

Originally posted by Padraic Padraic wrote:

Originally posted by JLocke JLocke wrote:

Originally posted by Padraic Padraic wrote:



This post directed at no one in particular.

Then why post it?

Because I can post whatever I want within the bounds of the forum rules.

Hmm. I assume from your attitude that the post was in fact directed towards me, seeing as how the response I got back was disproportionate to my initial, honest question. 

My post just happened to be immediately after yours.  When I want to address someone, I always (at least try to) either quote them or address them directly by name.

And I feel I gave you an honest answer to your honest question.  Smile


Edited by Padraic - July 08 2010 at 20:37
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Points: 4900 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 08 2010 at 20:38
Originally posted by Padraic Padraic wrote:

Originally posted by JLocke JLocke wrote:

Originally posted by Padraic Padraic wrote:

Originally posted by JLocke JLocke wrote:

Originally posted by Padraic Padraic wrote:



This post directed at no one in particular.

Then why post it?

Because I can post whatever I want within the bounds of the forum rules.

Hmm. I assume from your attitude that the post was in fact directed towards me, seeing as how the response I got back was disproportionate to my initial, honest question. 

My post just happened to be immediately after yours.  When I want to address someone, I always (at least try to) either quote them or address them directly by name.

I see. Well, then I'm going to have to ask you why you took my question so wrong? I didn't deserve such a snippy response. I was honestly curious as to what led you to post that little speech of yours. Hopefully I'm allowed to still ask questions around these parts. 

EDIT: Just saw what you added to your previous post. Guess there is nothing more to say, then. Smile


Edited by JLocke - July 08 2010 at 20:39
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Points: 31169 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 08 2010 at 20:40
I'll try and be more courteous:  I'm not inclined to discuss my reasons for posting what I did.
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Points: 4900 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 08 2010 at 20:41
Originally posted by Padraic Padraic wrote:

I'll try and be more courteous:  I'm not inclined to discuss my reasons for posting what I did.

I see. Nothing wrong with that. Wink
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Points: 19535 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 08 2010 at 20:53
Originally posted by JLocke JLocke wrote:

I have family members who are Catholics, and am well aware that you guys believe good works are a part of salvation (even though it, in opinion, goes completely against the whole concept of Jesus taking on the burden of our sins, but whatever). My point, however, was that you can use the 'I can't claim to know God's plan' escape route all you want; you still have your own personal opinion regarding Mike's likelihood to enter heaven, and whatever your opinion may be, it's based on however you choose to interpret your bible. 
 
Even when we don't believe in literal interpretation of the Bible, some parts are pristine clear
 
Quote JAMES 2 .- 14 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what good [1] is that? 17 So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
 
So, why do you believe this goes against Jesus sacrifice?
 

Originally posted by JLocke JLocke wrote:

To me, that makes you just as guilty of judgmental behavior as anybody else here, if not more. Because, regardless of the requirements, you do believe that some people are sent to hell while others get to go to heaven. And an Atheist is much more likely to go to the fiery place than a believer. That's just how it is. To accept such a notion, that not everyone is good enough to have eternal bliss, is a very judgmental thing to do.

Mike may think you have silly beliefs, but at least he doesn't think anyone deserves to burn forever. (And if you're like Rob, and don't believe in hell as a place of torture, then it's still the same argument. You believe some people deserve eternal life, while others deserve hell/non-existence/separation from God/etc.)
 
It's funny, we are in a no win situation
 
If I had said "Mike is going to burn in hell" you would had called me fanatic, bigot, etc, if I say as I believe, "I don't know what God plans for Mike are", you say I'm even worst.
 
I don't know if there's a hell, the only hing I'm sure is that there is not a place of torture, but surely I don't know if any person deserves it, that's God's decision, not mine, I can just say that I don't believe in a hateful God, we don't believe in the Bible literally, we live the best we can by our morality and let others live.
 
 
Iván
 


Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - July 08 2010 at 21:02
            
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All I know is that to be religious is to absolutely reject experience and logic. There's no middle ground here. You can't walk around insisting on facts and proof and data for some things and then go "MAGIC GUY IN DA SKY" for others.
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Points: 4900 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 08 2010 at 21:01
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

 
It's funny, we are in a no win situation

I guess so


Quote  
If I had said "Mike is going to burn in hell" you would had called me fanatic, bigot, etc, if I say as I believe, "I don't know what God plans for Mike are", you say I'm even worst.

I don't know if there's a hell, the only hing I'm sure is that there is not a place of torture, but surely I don't know if any person deserves it, that's God's decision, not mine, I can just say that I don't believe in a hateful God, we don't believe in the Bible literally, we live the best we can by our morality and let others live.

No, I just think that regardless of what you openly admit, your religion states some very judgmental things. And you can modernize it and not take it literally all you want; it's still a Bronze Age religion full of hateful doctrines. Saying you don't take it literally doesn't change what is written plain as day in the texts themselves.


 
Quote
BTW: God made a sacrifice for our SINS, but if we ignore that sacrifice and are criminal mother f*****s because "God already took our sins", we are rejecting that sacrifice.

Then I guess all that talk about washing away our sins once and for all was just more non-literal stuff. How many good works does it take to be forgiven then, I wonder? How many until God forgives you again?


 
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But at the end we can't judge if we don't want to be judged, as simple as that.
 
:Iván
 
 . . . Unless God tells us to. Wink

EDIT: I see you changed your initial post considerably. I'm not going to re-answer everything though, because I actually want/need to take a break from the site for a few hours. Sorry. Tongue

Talk to you fellas soon, I'm sure.


Edited by JLocke - July 08 2010 at 21:04
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Points: 19535 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 08 2010 at 21:07
Originally posted by JLocke JLocke wrote:

Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

But at the end we can't judge if we don't want to be judged, as simple as that.
 
:Iván
 
 . . . Unless God tells us to. Wink
 
Luke 6:37 "Do not judge, and you will not be judged; and do not condemn, and you will not be condemned; pardon, and you will be pardoned.
Luke 6:41 "Why do you look at the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye?
Romans 14:10 But you, why do you judge your brother? Or you again, why do you regard your brother with contempt? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God.
Romans 14:13 Therefore let us not judge one another anymore, but rather determine this-- not to put an obstacle or a stumbling block in a brother's way. (NASB ©1995)

Originally posted by JLocke JLocke wrote:

EDIT: I see you changed your initial post considerably. I'm not going to re-answer everything though, because I actually want/need to take a break from the site for a few hours. Sorry. Tongue

Talk to you fellas soon, I'm sure.
 
That's why I answered your post even when I had deleted that part.
 
Iván
            
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Points: 4900 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 08 2010 at 21:09
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Originally posted by JLocke JLocke wrote:

Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

But at the end we can't judge if we don't want to be judged, as simple as that.
 
:Iván
 
 . . . Unless God tells us to. Wink
 
Luke 6:37 "Do not judge, and you will not be judged; and do not condemn, and you will not be condemned; pardon, and you will be pardoned.
Luke 6:41 "Why do you look at the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye?
Romans 14:10 But you, why do you judge your brother? Or you again, why do you regard your brother with contempt? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God.
Romans 14:13 Therefore let us not judge one another anymore, but rather determine this-- not to put an obstacle or a stumbling block in a brother's way. (NASB ©1995)



Yes, that's all very interesting. Now, quote something out of the Old Testament where it says to stone disobedient children to death.

Nighty night. 
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