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JLocke 
Prog Reviewer
Joined: November 18 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 4900
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 Posted: July 08 2010 at 17:11 |
 seventhsojourn wrote:
JLocke wrote:
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Mr ProgFreak wrote:
Well, if the topic upsets you so much, you probably should stay away. |
Not the topic, I had a 15 pages debate with Sean Trane and not a single problem...But, he acted with the courtesy of a gentleman.
You on the other hand offend us each time you can, show arrogance and the idea that you own the holy truth.
Iván |
Not to butt in, here, but I honestly don't see how Mike is being arrogant or offensive at all. |
If you are in possession of this revolutionary secret of science, why not prove it and be hailed as the new Newton? Of course, we know the answer. You can't do it. You are a fake (Richard Dawkins).
Have you watched the smug video in the original post, and read Mr ProgFreak's question there? He has already admitted in this thread that he didn't expect any new response to that question. Believers don't need to prove anything to the OP or Dawkins for that matter. Don't you think it's a bit arrogant of them to expect us to?
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Yes, I watched the video. I also don't consider it 'smug'. Nor do I consider it arrogant for a skeptic to ask for proof of something. Do you believe in bigfoot? If somebody comes on the news program and talks about how they 'swear they saw it', don't you ever find yourself giggling a little, and/or asking for proof? We are ALL 'atheist' in respect to most things. For the most part, we all have an equal amount of non-belief in faeries, Zeus, the Easter Bunny, and so forth. If a significant majority of your society would suddenly start claiming that the Easter Bunny is real, wouldn't you want to find out why they believe that?
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seventhsojourn
Special Collaborator
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Joined: December 11 2009
Location: .
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Points: 4006
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Posted: July 08 2010 at 17:21 |
JLocke wrote:
seventhsojourn wrote:
JLocke wrote:
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Mr ProgFreak wrote:
Well, if the topic upsets you so much, you probably should stay away. |
Not the topic, I had a 15 pages debate with Sean Trane and not a single problem...But, he acted with the courtesy of a gentleman.
You on the other hand offend us each time you can, show arrogance and the idea that you own the holy truth.
Iván |
Not to butt in, here, but I honestly don't see how Mike is being arrogant or offensive at all. |
If you are in possession of this revolutionary secret of science, why not prove it and be hailed as the new Newton? Of course, we know the answer. You can't do it. You are a fake (Richard Dawkins).
Have you watched the smug video in the original post, and read Mr ProgFreak's question there? He has already admitted in this thread that he didn't expect any new response to that question. Believers don't need to prove anything to the OP or Dawkins for that matter. Don't you think it's a bit arrogant of them to expect us to?
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Yes, I watched the video. I also don't consider it 'smug'. Nor do I consider it arrogant for a skeptic to ask for proof of something. Do you believe in bigfoot? If somebody comes on the news program and talks about how they 'swear they saw it', don't you ever find yourself giggling a little, and/or asking for proof? We are ALL 'atheist' in respect to most things. For the most part, we all have an equal amount of non-belief in faeries, Zeus, the Easter Bunny, and so forth. If a significant majority of your society would suddenly start claiming that the Easter Bunny is real, wouldn't you want to find out why they believe that? |
OK, I guess the ''smug'' part is subjective.
However, I think that to ask a question and to expect not to get a satisfactory (again, subjective) response is pretty arrogant. That might just be me though.
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
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Points: 37575
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Posted: July 08 2010 at 17:35 |
seventhsojourn wrote:
OK, I guess the ''smug'' part is subjective.
However, I think that to ask a question and to expect not to get a satisfactory (again, subjective) response is pretty arrogant. That might just be me though. |
One thing to bear in mind is that there are a few people here like Mike who have never experienced religious belief of any kind first-hand so they look at religious belief through completely different eyes than other "atheists" who were once believers such Micah or myself, or fulltime believers such as yourself and Iván. This outlook may appear as arrogance, but I don't think that it is.
Edited by Dean - July 08 2010 at 17:36
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What?
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Atavachron
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: September 30 2006
Location: Pearland
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Points: 65248
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Posted: July 08 2010 at 17:42 |
JLocke wrote:
Not to butt in, here, but I honestly don't see how Mike is being arrogant or offensive at all. |
Really? You can support Mike's position but that doesn't mean you have to ignore the obvious. Frankly Mike's tone has me increasingly wanting to defend Ivan's position - or his right to have it without being accused of stupidity - and I am a lifelong non-religionist
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jampa17
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 04 2009
Location: Guatemala
Status: Offline
Points: 6802
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Posted: July 08 2010 at 17:59 |
JLocke wrote:
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Mr ProgFreak wrote:
Well, if the topic upsets you so much, you probably should stay away. |
Not the topic, I had a 15 pages debate with Sean Trane and not a single problem...But, he acted with the courtesy of a gentleman.
You on the other hand offend us each time you can, show arrogance and the idea that you own the holy truth.
Iván |
Not to butt in, here, but I honestly don't see how Mike is being arrogant or offensive at all. |
Well, you know we have argue in the past and I know you are a little head heated but Mike seems to be more selfish in his points of view. He is like "I don't care if it's offensive, if it's true you should not get mad". The problem is that if you don't believe in something, you cannot go in and bash just because.
What is the point of asking for answers or "read the Bible for analysis" (like Mike does) if your only purpose is to criticyse everything about it. Why he ask for answers when all he wants is to refuse them? If he doesn't believe, that's fine, he can be happy like that, why in the Hell is he asking for something he won't believe?
I don't ask Buddist to change their ways, I try to understand their believes first, find points of common with my own faith and try to get their point of view. Mike just can't put on anyone elses shoes...
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Change the program inside... Stay in silence is a crime.
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JLocke
Prog Reviewer
Joined: November 18 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 4900
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Posted: July 08 2010 at 18:01 |
Atavachron wrote:
JLocke wrote:
Not to butt in, here, but I honestly don't see how Mike is being arrogant or offensive at all. |
Really? You can support Mike's position but that doesn't mean you have to ignore the obvious. Frankly Mike's tone has me increasingly wanting to defend Ivan's position - or his right to have it without being accused of stupidity - and I am a lifelong non-religionist
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Well, that's your right to feel that way. I don't have to agree with your stance, though.
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JLocke
Prog Reviewer
Joined: November 18 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 4900
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Posted: July 08 2010 at 18:05 |
Dean wrote:
seventhsojourn wrote:
OK, I guess the ''smug'' part is subjective.
However, I think that to ask a question and to expect not to get a satisfactory (again, subjective) response is pretty arrogant. That might just be me though. |
One thing to bear in mind is that there are a few people here like Mike who have never experienced religious belief of any kind first-hand so they look at religious belief through completely different eyes than other "atheists" who were once believers such Micah or myself, or fulltime believers such as yourself and Iván. This outlook may appear as arrogance, but I don't think that it is. |
I think you've hit the nail on the head, Dean. You and I probably seem more 'reasonable' to believers simply because we too shared their perspectives at one time. Mike simply isn't able to grasp how it's even possible to believe what Ivan does or what we used to, so naturally he is going to come off as more hard-edged and aggressive when he makes his points. I don't see him as intentionally being a bully, though. What would be the point?
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JLocke
Prog Reviewer
Joined: November 18 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 4900
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Posted: July 08 2010 at 19:08 |
jampa17 wrote:
Well, you know we have argue in the past and I know you are a little head heated but Mike seems to be more selfish in his points of view. He is like "I don't care if it's offensive, if it's true you should not get mad". The problem is that if you don't believe in something, you cannot go in and bash just because. |
Sure, I can. I wouldn't do that, but I have the right to. Atheists believe that we have a good reason for 'bashing', though. You don't seem to understand that. You call it 'bashing', I call it 'debating'.
jampa17 wrote:
What is the point of asking for answers or "read the Bible for analysis" (like Mike does) if your only purpose is to criticyse everything about it. Why he ask for answers when all he wants is to refuse them? If he doesn't believe, that's fine, he can be happy like that, why in the Hell is he asking for something he won't believe? |
Because he doesn't believe the same things you do, and he chooses to. However, I don't think he has decided ahead of time to simply reject any argument you may come up with. It's just that none of the arguments believers propose has yet to make sense to us. If you guys deliver an argument that makes sense to everybody, we'll concede to it. But as of this moment, I haven't seen you make one argument of any kind in this thread, and what other arguments your fellow believers have made fail to make sense to anybody other than christians.
jampa17 wrote:
I don't ask Buddist to change their ways, I try to understand their believes first, find points of common with my own faith and try to get their point of view. Mike just can't put on anyone elses shoes... |
You haven't even tried to put on our shoes in this debate, so this point is . . . well, pointless. Most Buddhists would probably be on our side, just so you know. They may not openly start debates, being all about piece and what-not, but they certainly don't believe the types of things you do.
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Slartibartfast
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam
Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
Status: Offline
Points: 29630
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Posted: July 08 2010 at 19:17 |
I like the debates on religious matters we have here. People have strong opinions. They have the virtue of being a little fun and often pointless.  Uhm, the debates, not the debaters. 
Edited by Slartibartfast - July 08 2010 at 19:18
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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JLocke
Prog Reviewer
Joined: November 18 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 4900
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Posted: July 08 2010 at 19:20 |
Yeah. I mean, if I really took all of this super-seriously, I'd be a nervous wreck every time I would walk away from my computer. As it is, I'm able to appreciate the debates without allowing anything to affect me too personally.
Although, to be fair, I'm on the OP's side, in this case. If I would stroll into someone else's thread, and they disagree with my position, it would be a little more difficult to keep my cool at times, I'm sure. It's happened before with me, and I know it's bound to happen again.
That's one of the reasons why I admire you, Slarti. You don't seem to EVER get personally offended or upset by people on this forum. Hell, you're so indifferent and just along for the ride in this case, I honestly don't know which side you are on.  But you come in from time to time and lighten the mood with a little joke or two, and that's something a thread like this desperately needs, I think.
Edited by JLocke - July 08 2010 at 19:23
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DisgruntledPorcupine
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Joined: January 16 2010
Location: Thunder Bay CAN
Status: Offline
Points: 4395
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Posted: July 08 2010 at 19:24 |
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Yeah. The only time I even slightly lose my cool is when the person I'm arguing with is incredibly ignorant to everything.
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JLocke
Prog Reviewer
Joined: November 18 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 4900
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Posted: July 08 2010 at 19:25 |
DT-PT wrote:
Yeah. The only time I even slightly lose my cool is when the person I'm arguing with is incredibly ignorant to everything. |
Luckily, there doesn't seem to be much of a problem with that in this community, for the most part. 
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Slartibartfast
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam
Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
Status: Offline
Points: 29630
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Posted: July 08 2010 at 19:29 |
JLocke wrote:
That's one of the reasons why I admire you, Slarti. You don't seem to EVER get personally offended or upset by people on this forum. Hell, you're so indifferent and just along for the ride in this case, I honestly don't know which side you are on. But you come in from time to time and lighten the mood with a little joke or two, and that's something a thread like this desperately needs, I think. |
Sometimes my jokes bomb, but try and stop me. I should say when the ignorant get going it's time for the intelligent to tease them in ways they won't understand. 
Edited by Slartibartfast - July 08 2010 at 19:30
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
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Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
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Points: 19535
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Posted: July 08 2010 at 19:31 |
Dean wrote:
One thing to bear in mind is that there are a few people here like Mike who have never experienced religious belief of any kind first-hand so they look at religious belief through completely different eyes than other "atheists" who were once believers such Micah or myself, or fulltime believers such as yourself and Iván. This outlook may appear as arrogance, but I don't think that it is. |
Dean, I have never experienced atheism, but this doesn't allow me to say "Hey all the atheists have stupid beliefs", that would be disrespectful and arrogant.
But Mike seems to have the feeling that the more he insults us and mocks of our beliefs, the more easily he will convince others he owns the truth.
The real religious person or atheist is so sure of his belief doesn't need to insult all the others who don't agree with him.
We don't ask him to share our beliefs, but to show the same courtesy and respect we show his disbelief, you know how opposite our beliefs are Dean, but we never need to insult others to feel superior.
He behaves no different than the bigot from the Westboro Baptist Church who goes to a funeral of a gay kid to applaud because another freak is burning in hell, without any consideration, because he feels it's his divine right.
The WBC fanatic says "Hey I don't hate the kid, I hate what he was", Mike says "Religious people are not stupid, but all in what they believe is stupid"
Don't you see the flaw?
Iván
BTW: I'm not a fanatical Catholic, as a fact nobody that knows me would even imagine I'm a believer, I hardly go to mass or never tried to convince anybody, but when bigots attack our beliefs I feel the need to defend my religion and the right of every person to follow any religion or lack of religion they want.
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DisgruntledPorcupine
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 16 2010
Location: Thunder Bay CAN
Status: Offline
Points: 4395
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Posted: July 08 2010 at 19:32 |
JLocke wrote:
DT-PT wrote:
Yeah. The only time I even slightly lose my cool is when the person I'm arguing with is incredibly ignorant to everything. |
Luckily, there doesn't seem to be much of a problem with that in this community, for the most part. |
Yeah. At least it's not like Youtube, where I've heard people say that if a song isn't on the radio, it's because it's not good enough for them so they only listen to radio music.
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DisgruntledPorcupine
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 16 2010
Location: Thunder Bay CAN
Status: Offline
Points: 4395
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Posted: July 08 2010 at 19:34 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
The WBC fanatic says "Hey I don't hate the kid, I hate what he was", Mike says "Religious people are not stupid, but all in what they believe is stupid"
Don't you see the flaw? |
Honestly, I understand what he's saying. Like JLocke said, if you think The Simpsons is stupid, it doesn't mean you think those who watch it are stupid. And do not say that it is different, because if you think about it, it all makes sense I find.
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Slartibartfast
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Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam
Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
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Points: 29630
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Posted: July 08 2010 at 19:35 |
You know I've read a lot of your posts and have never known you, Iván, not to engage in intelligent debate.
DT-PT wrote:
Yeah. At least it's not like Youtube, where I've heard
people say that if a song isn't on the radio, it's because it's not good
enough for them so they only listen to radio music. |
Ignorance is bliss.
Edited by Slartibartfast - July 08 2010 at 19:37
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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JLocke
Prog Reviewer
Joined: November 18 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 4900
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Posted: July 08 2010 at 19:37 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
[
Dean, I have never experienced atheism, but this doesn't allow me to say "Hey all the atheists have stupid beliefs", that would be disrespectful and arrogant. |
No, you just think Atheists go to hell because they don't believe what you do. That's so much better.
But Mike seems to have the feeling that the more he insults us and mocks of our beliefs, the more easily he will convince others he owns the truth.
The real religious person or atheist is so sure of his belief doesn't need to insult all the others who don't agree with him.
We don't ask him to share our beliefs, but to show the same courtesy and respect we show his disbelief, you know how opposite our beliefs are Dean, but we never need to insult others to feel superior. |
Where exactly did Mike insult or mock you personally? Can you put it in a quote and show me?
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He behaves no different than the bigot from the Westboro Baptist Church who goes to a funeral of a gay kid to applaud because another freak is burning in hell, without any consideration, because he feels it's his divine right.
The WBC fanatic says "Hey I don't hate the kid, I hate what he was", Mike says "Religious people are not stupid, but all in what they believe is stupid"
Don't you see the flaw?
Iván |
No, I really don't.
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BTW: I'm not a fanatical Catholic, as a fact nobody that knows me would even imagine I'm a believer, I hardly go to mass or never tried to convince anybody, but when bigots attack our beliefs I feel the need to defend my religion and the right of every person to follow any religion or lack of religion they want. |
Well, that's good. And I will likewise defend your right to believe in whatever you want.
That doesn't mean we can't debate. And quite honestly, the religious people are the only ones in this thread I've seen getting angry or hostile. It's funny how completely different some people's perspectives can be, huh?
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19535
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Posted: July 08 2010 at 19:44 |
JLocke wrote:
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
[
Dean, I have never experienced atheism, but this doesn't allow me to say "Hey all the atheists have stupid beliefs", that would be disrespectful and arrogant. |
No, you just think Atheists go to hell because they don't believe what you do. That's so much better.
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Please, don't pretend to know what I think, because I don't know what God's plans for Mik4e are.
Iván
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JLocke
Prog Reviewer
Joined: November 18 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 4900
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Posted: July 08 2010 at 19:47 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
JLocke wrote:
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
[
Dean, I have never experienced atheism, but this doesn't allow me to say "Hey all the atheists have stupid beliefs", that would be disrespectful and arrogant. |
No, you just think Atheists go to hell because they don't believe what you do. That's so much better.
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Please, don't pretend to know what I think, because I don't know what God's plans for Mik4e are.
Iván
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I don't pretend to know anything, but if you truly believe what the bible says, then that means according to God's laws, he will send Mike to hell when he dies. Now isn't that true, or not? if you say no, then the whole point of Jesus' crucifixion goes out the window.
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