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seventhsojourn 
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 Posted: July 08 2010 at 14:51 |
 Mr ProgFreak wrote:
^^ What's the point of being a Catholic then, when denominations don't matter? I believe the world is God - and I surely believe in the world, so it's good to know that I won't go to hell.
Seriously, I have my doubts whether devout Catholics would subscribe to that. I'm sure though that many liberal Catholics do - in that case I would call them practical Atheists, since their religion has eroded to such an extent that it has little (if any) bearing on their life.
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You can call me whatever the heck you like... I'll keep calling myself a Catholic... but then, you evidently know more about my life than i do.
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Mr ProgFreak
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Posted: July 08 2010 at 14:57 |
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^ Seriously, why be a Catholic when Protestants get into heaven as well? Much less rules and practices to follow.
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Padraic
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Posted: July 08 2010 at 15:15 |
Mr ProgFreak wrote:
^ Seriously, why be a Catholic when Protestants get into heaven as well? Much less rules and practices to follow.
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Because if it's only about minimizing rules to be followed you might as well become an atheist. 
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: July 08 2010 at 15:20 |
Mr ProgFreak wrote:
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Mr ProgFreak wrote:
I could simply call it "better education". I know that it's not realistic to expect such a wave of enlightenment to happen - but what I don't understand is how people like Iván see my desire for that to happen as such a bad thing. I'm certainly not going from door to door, asking people whether they're religious and if so, talk them into the ground with scientific arguments.
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Mike, don't be so arrogant, we don't care about your desires, with your pardon, you are not so important to us, you can desire what you want.
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Bash scientific education all you want - I believe it's important.
I am not bashing anything at all, the only arrogant insulting us are you, you bash our beliefs and ask respect for yours, and the next paragraph is a prove.
Iván wrote:
What we don't like is people spending millions to insult us, to call us ignorants,, we don't insult you, we don't even care if you exist or not, we don't spend millions (of course making a lot of money as some well knowbn atheists), flooding e internet to say how stuupid you are because you don't believe in God.
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The believe is stupid (in my opinion) - I never said that you are stupid because you hold that belief.
That was enough for me, you are playing with the woeds as if in fact we were stupid enough not to notoice, you say we have stupid beliefs, so we must be stupids.
This will be my last post in reply to you, because you don't have the minimum courtesy required for a discussion, we try to give reasons, you answer with aggressions.
Iván wrote:
But you do precisely that, you ask that religion is kept outside schools and universities, but guys like Dawkins go there to try o our beliefs and insult us, they tell our young sons how stupid their parents are, if religiion should be kept away from education, the opposite position must be kept away also.
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There you go again with the specious analogies. Religion and Science are not opposite positions - they're not equals. Just like being without religion is not just another religion. I know you like to make that simplification, but it's simply ( ) not valid.
Atheism is not science either, if some religion denies evolutuion we are wrong, band if the Catholic Church accepts evoilution we are also wrong, you are the ones who claim to have the monopoly of science.
Iván wrote:
BTW: Catholic Church(for whom I can talk), never go door to door asking converts, but SOME atheists go from school to school and university to university, trying to convince people how stupid they are if they believe in God.
Live and let live, that's all we ask.
Iván
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Many religious people came to my door in the last couple of years ... usually once or twice a year. I've never met a proselytizing Atheist though, and I've never seen Atheists campaigns - neither in schools nor at universities. There are also no Atheist programmes on TV or radio that I'm aware of. I know of things like that in the UK and USA - and I would say that they're more necessary there.
Have you seen how many conferences and lectures do atheists who live from their beliefs give in universities?
Of course this guys don't go door by door that's a cal and not profitablel, even when I don't agree, I respect this guys who do it for free
Dawkins and his peers go to umversities, and present themselves in huge Conference rooms because the money is there, this guys sell their lectures, books, and propaganda in universities and Internet where the money is.
I don't believes this guys talk for free, while the poor Jehova Wittnes or Mormons go door by door for love (Even when I don't agree with their methiod).
Iván
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Mr ProgFreak
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Posted: July 08 2010 at 15:29 |
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Well, if the topic upsets you so much, you probably should stay away.
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: July 08 2010 at 15:29 |
Mr ProgFreak wrote:
Seriously, I have my doubts whether devout Catholics would subscribe to that. I'm sure though that many liberal Catholics do - in that case I would call them practical Atheists, since their religion has eroded to such an extent that it has little (if any) bearing on their life.
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I didn't want to reply again, but this comment is really stupid (Not you Mike, just your comment 
We are Cathooics, we believe in the Catholic dogmas, but God admits salvation for prople who have a different religion, even when we believe our's is the truth one.
A Catholic can never be a practical atheist, no matter how much you want to mock of our beliefs, our religion has a great meaning in our life, but a good Protestant or Jewish or Buddhist who is honest with his belefs, doesn't has to be kept away from salvation because nobody taught him about the true Church.
Mr ProgFreak wrote:
^ Seriously, why be a Catholic when Protestants get into heaven as well? Much less rules and practices to follow. |
Because we are Cathoilics for our faith and confidence in the dogmas of the Catholic Church, not because of convenience.
Plus, if a Catholic abandons the true Church, he doesn't have the excuse of ignorance, being that we know the truth (or at least what we know as the truth) and if we move to another religion, we would be abandoning it by our own will.
Iván
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - July 08 2010 at 15:39
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Mr ProgFreak
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Posted: July 08 2010 at 15:30 |
Padraic wrote:
Mr ProgFreak wrote:
^ Seriously, why be a Catholic when Protestants get into heaven as well? Much less rules and practices to follow.
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Because if it's only about minimizing rules to be followed you might as well become an atheist. |
I don't think that this nebulous catechism covers atheists, too ... but yes, not having to follow any fixed rules and no rituals is a huge time saver. 
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: July 08 2010 at 16:14 |
Mr ProgFreak wrote:
Well, if the topic upsets you so much, you probably should stay away. |
Not the topic, I had a 15 pages debate with Sean Trane and not a single problem...But, he acted with the courtesy of a gentleman.
You on the other hand offend us each time you can, show arrogance and the idea that you own the holy truth.
Iván
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JLocke
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Joined: November 18 2007
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Posted: July 08 2010 at 16:19 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Mr ProgFreak wrote:
Well, if the topic upsets you so much, you probably should stay away. |
Not the topic, I had a 15 pages debate with Sean Trane and not a single problem...But, he acted with the courtesy of a gentleman.
You on the other hand offend us each time you can, show arrogance and the idea that you own the holy truth.
Iván |
Not to butt in, here, but I honestly don't see how Mike is being arrogant or offensive at all.
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: July 08 2010 at 16:28 |
JLocke wrote:
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Mr ProgFreak wrote:
Well, if the topic upsets you so much, you probably should stay away. |
Not the topic, I had a 15 pages debate with Sean Trane and not a single problem...But, he acted with the courtesy of a gentleman.
You on the other hand offend us each time you can, show arrogance and the idea that you own the holy truth.
Iván |
Not to butt in, here, but I honestly don't see how Mike is being arrogant or offensive at all. |
Probably in your opinion calling us stupids (if we have stupid beliefs we are stupid) is not arrogant.
Iván
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - July 08 2010 at 16:49
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JLocke
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Posted: July 08 2010 at 16:35 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
JLocke wrote:
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Mr ProgFreak wrote:
Well, if the topic upsets you so much, you probably should stay away. |
Not the topic, I had a 15 pages debate with Sean Trane and not a single problem...But, he acted with the courtesy of a gentleman.
You on the other hand offend us each time you can, show arrogance and the idea that you own the holy truth.
Iván |
Not to butt in, here, but I honestly don't see how Mike is being arrogant or offensive at all. |
Probably for you calling us stupids (if we have stupid beliefs we are stupid) is ot arrogant.
Iván |
I honestly didn't understand what you typed, there. Are you saying I am calling you stupid? Because I'm not.
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Padraic
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Posted: July 08 2010 at 16:36 |
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I think he's saying you don't think Mike calling their beliefs stupid is arrogant.
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JLocke
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Posted: July 08 2010 at 16:40 |
Padraic wrote:
I think he's saying you don't think Mike calling their beliefs stupid is arrogant. |
Well, I do plenty of stupid things, but that does not make me myself a stupid person. I can't speak for Mike, but just because I think religious people are misguided, I can look up to religious people despite that. Robert (Epignosis) is one of the smartest people I've spoken to. WAY smarter than I am. So what if I don't believe in the same things he does when it comes to the whole God thing? As a person and musician, I look up to him quite a bit.
A person's perspectives and/or actions don't always represent the person himself. If I say enjoying The Simpsons is 'stupid', that doesn't mean I'm calling Simpsons fans stupid people.
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: July 08 2010 at 16:51 |
Padraic wrote:
I think he's saying you don't think Mike calling their beliefs stupid is arrogant. |
Thanks Padraic, sometimes I translate literally from Spanish and doesn't make the same sense.
Iván
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DisgruntledPorcupine
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Posted: July 08 2010 at 16:53 |
JLocke wrote:
If I say enjoying The Simpsons is 'stupid', that doesn't mean I'm calling Simpsons fans stupid people. |
Exactly my thoughts. Personally, I think the whole concept of religion is hogwash and the cause of many things wrong with the world, but I don't think religious people are stupid.
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JLocke
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Posted: July 08 2010 at 16:56 |
DT-PT wrote:
JLocke wrote:
If I say enjoying The Simpsons is 'stupid', that doesn't mean I'm calling Simpsons fans stupid people. |
Exactly my thoughts. Personally, I think the whole concept of religion is hogwash and the cause of many things wrong with the world, but I don't think religious people are stupid.
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Something that should really be considered by any religious person who may be offended by Mike's 'style' on these boards is this:
If Mike honestly thinks the religious members of the forum are stupid, then why would be constantly debate them and try to get them to see his point of view? He honestly must believe that they are intelligent enough to see both sides of the argument, otherwise he wouldn't waste his time.
I would argue that most religious people DO understand the other side of the argument, but choose to reject it for any number of reasons. I know when I considered myself a christian (for 18-19 years, or so), I would always go out of my way to understand the atheists' perspectives, because I believed in being fair. My faith was strong enough to where I didn't get offended at all whenever someone would speak out against my beliefs. I actually enjoyed the debating.
Sure, I ultimately ended up changing my mind, but that's besides the point. 
Edited by JLocke - July 08 2010 at 17:00
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: July 08 2010 at 16:59 |
JLocke wrote:
Padraic wrote:
I think he's saying you don't think Mike calling their beliefs stupid is arrogant. |
Well, I do plenty of stupid things, but that does not make me myself a stupid person. I can't speak for Mike, but just because I think religious people are misguided, I can look up to religious people despite that. Robert (Epignosis) is one of the smartest people I've spoken to. WAY smarter than I am. So what if I don't believe in the same things he does when it comes to the whole God thing? As a person and musician, I look up to him quite a bit.
A person's perspectives and/or actions don't always represent the person himself. If I say enjoying The Simpsons is 'stupid', that doesn't mean I'm calling Simpsons fans stupid people. |
JLocke, being a Simpson's fan doesn't represent a person in all their aspects, so if you call The Simpsons a stupid program shouldn't affect anybody.
But if you call our most transcendental beliefs stupid...then you are calling us stupid...and that is arrogant.
But that isn't all, he has called us fanatics, delusional, etc etc etc, and we never been disrespectful with your disbelief.
Iván
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seventhsojourn
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Posted: July 08 2010 at 16:59 |
JLocke wrote:
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Mr ProgFreak wrote:
Well, if the topic upsets you so much, you probably should stay away. |
Not the topic, I had a 15 pages debate with Sean Trane and not a single problem...But, he acted with the courtesy of a gentleman.
You on the other hand offend us each time you can, show arrogance and the idea that you own the holy truth.
Iván |
Not to butt in, here, but I honestly don't see how Mike is being arrogant or offensive at all. |
If you are in possession of this revolutionary secret of science, why not prove it and be hailed as the new Newton? Of course, we know the answer. You can't do it. You are a fake (Richard Dawkins).
Have you watched the smug video in the original post, and read Mr ProgFreak's question there? He has already admitted in this thread that he didn't expect any new response to that question. Believers don't need to prove anything to the OP or Dawkins for that matter. Don't you think it's a bit arrogant of them to expect us to?
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JLocke
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Posted: July 08 2010 at 17:05 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
JLocke wrote:
Padraic wrote:
I think he's saying you don't think Mike calling their beliefs stupid is arrogant. |
Well, I do plenty of stupid things, but that does not make me myself a stupid person. I can't speak for Mike, but just because I think religious people are misguided, I can look up to religious people despite that. Robert (Epignosis) is one of the smartest people I've spoken to. WAY smarter than I am. So what if I don't believe in the same things he does when it comes to the whole God thing? As a person and musician, I look up to him quite a bit.
A person's perspectives and/or actions don't always represent the person himself. If I say enjoying The Simpsons is 'stupid', that doesn't mean I'm calling Simpsons fans stupid people. |
JLocke, being a Simpson's fan doesn't represent a person in all their aspects, so if you call The Simpsons a stupid program shouldn't affect anybody.
But if you call our most transcendental beliefs stupid...then you are calling us stupid...and that is arrogant.
But that isn't all, he has called us fanatics, delusional, etc etc etc, and we never been disrespectful with your disbelief.
Iván |
I couldn't disagree with you more, Ivan. until he calls you 'stupid' straight out, I'm not buying it. I had people calling my beliefs stupid for years when I was a christian myself, and I never let hurt me personally. A person's religious beliefs are only part of the whole person, I don't how closely some may hold them. If you are allowing yourself to be personally hurt by this argument, then you are the one who should take a look at yourself, in my opinion.
I'm not saying that to you as an atheist; I'm saying it as a fellow human being. I get personally offended a lot on this forum, and 99.9% of the time, I'm wrong for doing so. We're not insulting each-other's family members, here, we're having heated debates on real issues. That's nothing but healthy, as far as I am concerned.
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DisgruntledPorcupine
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Posted: July 08 2010 at 17:09 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
But if you call our most transcendental beliefs stupid...then you are calling us stupid...and that is arrogant. |
I disagree. I would never even consider believing in any diety because I think the whole thing is far-fetched, but I don't look down on people for their beliefs.
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