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Joined: November 08 2008
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 5195
Posted: July 07 2010 at 09:18
BaldFriede wrote:
Mr ProgFreak wrote:
BaldFriede wrote:
Indeed I do, Mike, and so should you, Have you any idea how many models and ideas scientists come up with, 99% of which land in the waste bucket and are never heard of again? But they all initially have more credibility just because they were made by scientists? Do I have to remind you of false ideas that were believed in by scientists for decades, like "phlogiston" or the "ether?
What does that have to do with Bigfootism?
Excuse me? Do you really ask that question?
I agree, it's pointless since you won't answer it.
Joined: June 02 2005
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 10261
Posted: July 07 2010 at 09:23
Mr ProgFreak wrote:
BaldFriede wrote:
Mr ProgFreak wrote:
BaldFriede wrote:
Indeed I do, Mike, and so should you, Have you any idea how many models and ideas scientists come up with, 99% of which land in the waste bucket and are never heard of again? But they all initially have more credibility just because they were made by scientists? Do I have to remind you of false ideas that were believed in by scientists for decades, like "phlogiston" or the "ether?
What does that have to do with Bigfootism?
Excuse me? Do you really ask that question?
I agree, it's pointless since you won't answer it.
I am not even sure what you mean by "Bigfootism". Care to explain?
Joined: November 08 2008
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 5195
Posted: July 07 2010 at 09:24
BaldFriede wrote:
Dean wrote:
BaldFriede wrote:
That's my point exactly, Dean. It is a "proposed explanation", nothing more. You could call the belief in a deity a "proposed explanation" too. The difference is Mike calls his "proposed explanation" more believable than the other, for which there is no reason at all. Believing in the "God of science" is just another misapprehension. There is more to the world than scientists can explain, and this is not the age-old argument "there will always be something science can't explain" (by the way, the opposite would be "one day science can explain everything; does anybody really believe that? I don't). I am talking about non-locality here, things like second sight or telepathy, for example. I am pretty sure the balance will swing back from the scientific to the spiritual in the future; my ideal is that the two should fuse, like the wave / corpuscle aspects of light. I know from experience that there is something to these non-local incidents. Of course for scientists this is all just chance because it is not repeatable, but how can we expect to repeat something of which we don't know the parameters yet? Mark that apart from some hard-core Christians from the bible belt no-one of the Christian faith believes in the creation as it is depicted in the bible; most Christians just believe that at the very beginning there was God.
You've left the bounds of science here and entered the fantasy world of the paranormal.
I'm simply not interested. I'm out.
Of course, for everyone who has not experienced something like that it is "paranormal". Anyway, I don't think these expereinces have anything to do with God, at least not with God in the monotheistic version we are discussing here. And, once again, I am not trying to prove the existence of a deity; this is just about Mike's claim that his view is the only rational one to take.
You admit that your personal experience (revelation) is an important reason why you hold your position. The Atheist position (which I did not invent, so please don't always put it like it was "mine") does not need such subjective elements. It is clearly more rational than your position. As much as you trust that your experience was authentic, you have to realize that it may have been an illusion. I think that nobody replied to my post about the "God Helmet" ... there is no serious discussion about whether such an area of the brain exists or not.
We can also apply Occam's Razor again: It elegantly shaves off your revelation in favor of the much more probable explanation.
Joined: May 29 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 8368
Posted: July 07 2010 at 09:29
^I'm a little confused by your Occam's Razor arguments. Surely the theories of quantum mechanics are more complex than "God did it" so by that logic, God must have done it. Can you give me a numerical probability of the existence of god, compared with the probability of other explanations? If not, then this whole "which is more likely" argument seems irrelevant.
Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 17493
Posted: July 07 2010 at 10:05
I guess it's time for atheist-terrorism to be born. I'm not talking about communism which is atheist, but true 100% atheist-terrorism. Hordes of atheists flying a plane into St. Peter's kind of thing, you know....
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
Posted: July 07 2010 at 10:06
The T wrote:
I guess it's time for atheist-terrorism to be born. I'm not talking about communism which is atheist, but true 100% atheist-terrorism. Hordes of atheists flying a plane into St. Peter's kind of thing, you know....
Joined: November 08 2008
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 5195
Posted: July 07 2010 at 10:23
thellama73 wrote:
^I'm a little confused by your Occam's Razor arguments. Surely the theories of quantum mechanics are more complex than "God did it" so by that logic, God must have done it. Can you give me a numerical probability of the existence of god, compared with the probability of other explanations? If not, then this whole "which is more likely" argument seems irrelevant.
God is omnipotent and omniscient ... that's definitely more complex than anything that's part of the world (remember that he's supposed to have created it). Introducing a creator always adds complexity. It's the same with evolution vs. creationism. Evolution offers an elegant explanation and is essentially about how complex systems can evolve from less complex systems. Creationism may seem simpler at first ("God did it"), but it simply replaces one problem with an even bigger one.
Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
Status: Offline
Points: 29630
Posted: July 07 2010 at 10:24
Dean wrote:
The T wrote:
I guess it's time for atheist-terrorism to be born. I'm not talking about communism which is atheist, but true 100% atheist-terrorism. Hordes of atheists flying a plane into St. Peter's kind of thing, you know....
those would be antitheists rather than athiests.
Point well taken though, I do believe theists to be more dangerous to humanity.
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 17493
Posted: July 07 2010 at 10:40
Slartibartfast wrote:
Dean wrote:
The T wrote:
I guess it's time for atheist-terrorism to be born. I'm not talking about communism which is atheist, but true 100% atheist-terrorism. Hordes of atheists flying a plane into St. Peter's kind of thing, you know....
those would be antitheists rather than athiests.
Point well taken though, I do believe theists to be more dangerous to humanity.
No doubt about that. But atheists are more dangerous in internet forums
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
Posted: July 07 2010 at 10:55
The T wrote:
Slartibartfast wrote:
Dean wrote:
The T wrote:
I guess it's time for atheist-terrorism to be born. I'm not talking about communism which is atheist, but true 100% atheist-terrorism. Hordes of atheists flying a plane into St. Peter's kind of thing, you know....
those would be antitheists rather than athiests.
Point well taken though, I do believe theists to be more dangerous to humanity.
No doubt about that. But atheists are more dangerous in internet forums
Joined: November 10 2009
Location: Tulsa, OK, U.S.
Status: Offline
Points: 5148
Posted: July 07 2010 at 10:57
Dean wrote:
The T wrote:
Slartibartfast wrote:
Dean wrote:
The T wrote:
I guess it's time for atheist-terrorism to be born. I'm not talking about communism which is atheist, but true 100% atheist-terrorism. Hordes of atheists flying a plane into St. Peter's kind of thing, you know....
those would be antitheists rather than athiests.
Point well taken though, I do believe theists to be more dangerous to humanity.
No doubt about that. But atheists are more dangerous in internet forums
pfft. Mostly harmless.
Well, until they make God disappear in a puff of logic.
Joined: February 16 2006
Location: Pennsylvania
Status: Offline
Points: 31169
Posted: July 07 2010 at 11:11
By the way, all of you should be grateful to the admins and M@X that you're allowed to have these kinds of discussions. I'm a member of some other sites (non-music) and they don't tolerate these kinds of threads in the slightest. If you even mention stuff like this they will delete your posts. I've had posts deleted just for being off-topic!
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19535
Posted: July 07 2010 at 11:18
Mr ProgFreak wrote:
2. The difference between atheists and tv-evangelists is that the latter are *asking* for money,
And Atheists not?
Donate to the US Foundation
This page is the for donations to the US Foundation only. If you are a UK tax payer and you'd like to donate to RDFRS (UK) click here. There you'll be able to donate to the UK Foundation and download a gift aid decloration form.
One Time Donation through PayPal Please consider donating directly to RDF in the form below. Paypal is the worlds most used service for secure electronic transactions today. If you don't have an account, the signup is free and easy. Your donations make our campaign for Reason and Science possible!
Please consider making an automatic yearly donation! You can of course cancel it through paypal at any time.
Your donations help The Richard Dawkins Foundation for Reason and Science spread rational thinking and science education throughout the world.
Don't know you, but I seen similar pages in Evangelists sites, plus of course merchandising like books, T-Shirts, etc
Isn't this asking for money?
Mr ProgFreak wrote:
and that they ask the viewers to believe their claims on a faith basis, rather than thinking for themselves ("Jesus is our lord and savior - take our word for it, and never mind those Hindus, Mormons, Jews or Muslims").
God doesn't exist, Religion is superstition, etc...All claims that can't be proveN either.
Please THUIS SITE WORKS EXACTLY AS ANY EVANGELIST SITE, they even have a holy mission:
Mission Statement for Both Charities
The mission of the Richard Dawkins Foundation for Reason and Science is to support scientific education, critical thinking and evidence-based understanding of the natural world in the quest to overcome religious fundamentalism, superstition, intolerance and human suffering.
Looks exactly as the 700 VClub's site
Mr ProgFreak wrote:
Your belief is rooted deeply - and a common reaction when someone's core belief is questioned is to become more fundamentalist about it. I don't think that there's anything I could do or say to change your belief - so I'm not even trying to do that. I simply state my beliefs and opinions, and if they provoke such a strong reaction in you, then maybe you should think about why that is so.
Hey Mike, have you read your posts lately, each time somebody talks about religion, you reply with more anger.
You have insulted us, called us ignorants, delusional, etc, and you accuse us of fundamentalism?
Joined: June 22 2004
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 16130
Posted: July 07 2010 at 11:21
Padraic wrote:
By the way, all of you should be grateful to the admins and M@X that you're allowed to have these kinds of discussions. I'm a member of some other sites (non-music) and they don't tolerate these kinds of threads in the slightest. If you even mention stuff like this they will delete your posts. I've had posts deleted just for being off-topic!
Absolutely. I've been on forums where if you even mention the word 'Israel' in any context, you're told that your posts are being monitored.
By and large these discussions are good natured, intelligent and balanced. These topics can be very emotive.
Joined: January 16 2010
Location: Thunder Bay CAN
Status: Offline
Points: 4395
Posted: July 07 2010 at 11:23
I think it's absurd to use the "you can't prove it" argument to anybody anywhere. Neither side can nor ever will be able to prove a single one of their arguments. Unless we all get spaceships ready to go to heaven or dig underground in search of hell or something.
Joined: November 10 2009
Location: Tulsa, OK, U.S.
Status: Offline
Points: 5148
Posted: July 07 2010 at 11:40
Blacksword wrote:
Padraic wrote:
By the way, all of you should be grateful to the admins and M@X that you're allowed to have these kinds of discussions. I'm a member of some other sites (non-music) and they don't tolerate these kinds of threads in the slightest. If you even mention stuff like this they will delete your posts. I've had posts deleted just for being off-topic!
Absolutely. I've been on forums where if you even mention the word 'Israel' in any context, you're told that your posts are being monitored.
By and large these discussions are good natured, intelligent and balanced. These topics can be very emotive.
No kidding. There was a time that Gamespot banned all religious discussion because the debates became so heated (not that it stopped completely.) I don't know if it is still in place, because I stopped going a long time ago. That being said, the conversations on video game forums aren't much more evolved than the ones in JJ's comics.
Joined: June 22 2004
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 16130
Posted: July 07 2010 at 11:41
DT-PT wrote:
I think it's absurd to use the "you can't prove it" argument to anybody anywhere. Neither side can nor ever will be able to prove a single one of their arguments. Unless we all get spaceships ready to go to heaven or dig underground in search of hell or something.
Yes, this may satisfy those who take Heaven and Hell in a literal sense. I think those who believe that God is an invisible giant who lives in the sky, and that Hell is a place beneath the Earths crust where bad people go, are going to be dissapointed.
That said, there MAY come a time where one side will be vindicated through science, one way or another. Which side that is, remains to be seen.
Joined: June 22 2004
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 16130
Posted: July 07 2010 at 11:44
UndercoverBoy wrote:
Blacksword wrote:
Padraic wrote:
By the way, all of you should be grateful to the admins and M@X that you're allowed to have these kinds of discussions. I'm a member of some other sites (non-music) and they don't tolerate these kinds of threads in the slightest. If you even mention stuff like this they will delete your posts. I've had posts deleted just for being off-topic!
Absolutely. I've been on forums where if you even mention the word 'Israel' in any context, you're told that your posts are being monitored. By and large these discussions are good natured, intelligent and balanced. These topics can be very emotive.
No kidding. There was a time that Gamespot banned all religious discussion because the debates became so heated (not that it stopped completely.) I don't know if it is still in place, because I stopped going a long time ago. That being said, the conversations on video game forums aren't much more evolved than the ones in JJ's comics.
I can imagine..
The folk around here mostly know how to debate such things, without seriously upsetting their fellow proggers.
Mmm..maybe prog rock is evidence of a God! Lets face it Jesus wouldn't have looked out of place in Pink Floyd..
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Theism vs. Atheism ... will it ever be settled?
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BaldFriede wrote:
