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sleeper 
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 Posted: July 02 2010 at 14:56 |
 BaldFriede wrote:
E-Dub wrote:
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
I suggest to forget Hogarth's era and buy some Fish era albums.
Iván |
Sorry, Ivan, but really disappointed with this. You know I consider you a friend, but I thought you were above posts of this nature. This clearly wasn't the thread for you.
The author was simply looking for suggestions. Just because you don't like a particular era doesn't mean that somebody else will feel the same way. I can't stand Jethro Tull; but, if somebody were to ask for suggestions then it's not my place to chime in one way or another. Let somebody who can appreciate it guide the person.
Just my two cents.
E
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Ivan gave his suggestion: Don't buy any of them! What's wrong with that?
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I dont go into the PT thread and tell people to not buy their albums, thats just trolling. When you someone asks for suggestions of where to start with a band, you know damn well what they mean and its not an opertunity to spout out on how much you dislike them.
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Spending more than I should on Prog since 2005
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BaldFriede
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Posted: July 02 2010 at 15:41 |
sleeper wrote:
BaldFriede wrote:
E-Dub wrote:
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
I suggest to forget Hogarth's era and buy some Fish era albums.
Iván |
Sorry, Ivan, but really disappointed with this. You know I consider you a friend, but I thought you were above posts of this nature. This clearly wasn't the thread for you.
The author was simply looking for suggestions. Just because you don't like a particular era doesn't mean that somebody else will feel the same way. I can't stand Jethro Tull; but, if somebody were to ask for suggestions then it's not my place to chime in one way or another. Let somebody who can appreciate it guide the person.
Just my two cents.
E
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Ivan gave his suggestion: Don't buy any of them! What's wrong with that?
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I dont go into the PT thread and tell people to not buy their albums, thats just trolling. When you someone asks for suggestions of where to start with a band, you know damn well what they mean and its not an opertunity to spout out on how much you dislike them. |
Sorry, but that's not the same. Ivan likes Marillion, at least of Fish era, but his suggestion is not to buy any albums of the Hogarth era. What better advice can he give And this is not just entering any marillion topic, it was specifically asked which albums could be recommended. Don't you think a Marillion fan who is only familiar with the Fish era has the right to be warned about the Hogarth era? Everybody warns people not to buy "Love Beach" by ELP just the same.
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 BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue.
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E-Dub
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Posted: July 02 2010 at 16:31 |
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The author didn't ask whether or not they should explore the Hogarth era of Marillion, did they? No. They asked for what discs with which to begin and what to expect. Clearly there are a lot of fans of the current incarnation of Marillion or they would've folded up the tents a long time ago. Hasn't happened. On the contrary, they seem to be thriving. So let this person explore and find out for him/herself.
Additionally, maybe the author already has the Fish era Marillion discs and knows them quite well, but wants to delve further. I'm sure if there was a Magma thread asking for suggestions and I came in, squatted down and took and took a dump all over it that I'd be getting raked over the coals.
E
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E-Dub
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Posted: July 02 2010 at 16:41 |
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<< What better advice can he give>>
Oh cool! That means I can go into any thread of any band I don't like with complete immunity and completely hijack it and turn it around to go against the spirit with which it was created? I declare 'bs' on this. I'm not a fan of, say, Mastedon. I've heard them, but I don't like them. So I'm not going to suggest anything because it's tainted and doesn't come from an objective point of view. I might not like them, but this hypothetical neophyte might really enjoy them. For God sakes, let them find out for themselves.
E
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BaldFriede
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Joined: June 02 2005
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Posted: July 02 2010 at 16:56 |
E-Dub wrote:
<< What better advice can he give>>
Oh
cool! That means I can go into any thread of any band I don't like with
complete immunity and completely hijack it and turn it around to go
against the spirit with which it was created? I declare 'bs' on this.
I'm not a fan of, say, Mastedon. I've heard them, but I don't like them.
So I'm not going to suggest anything because it's tainted and doesn't
come from an objective point of view. I might not like them, but this
hypothetical neophyte might really enjoy them. For God sakes, let them
find out for themselves.
E
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The thread was not hi-jacked at all! Perhaps you need to be reminded what the ques tion was:
Lately I'ved been thinking about getting some Hogarth-era Marillion
albums...
Any suggestions on what to start out with and what to expect
for the albums?
Ivan
said "none". I would be glad to be given such an advice if I had planned
spending any money on one of these albums. Now you may of course be of a
different opinion than Ivan, but he gave the questioner what he asked
for. So this is totally o.k. in this thread, even if Hogarth-era Marillion fans are peeved by the answer.
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BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue.
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E-Dub
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Posted: July 02 2010 at 16:59 |
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And perhaps you need to be reminded of what 'crapping all over a thread' is. Make sure this certain level-headiness is exhibited when somebody turns around and does something similar in a thread for a band you give a rat's cooter about. And it will happen.
E
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The Monodrone
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Posted: July 02 2010 at 17:25 |
 umm, sorry... I didn't intend for this thread to get out of hand.
I have to say I agree with E-Dub; the question I asked was 'what albums to get first,' not 'should I purchase a Hogarth-era album.' I've heard a few songs from the 'h-era,' quite enjoyed them and that's why I started this thread to begin with. Sorry about the misinterpretations! 
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E-Dub
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Posted: July 02 2010 at 17:33 |
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I took off my previous post. All I can say is no apologies are necessary.
E
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QEO
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Posted: July 02 2010 at 18:42 |
Anthony wrote:
For starters, get indeed either Brave, Afraid of sunlight or Marbles, and if you liked that, get any other album. |
+1 Those would be my recommendations as well...and I would definitely add Season's End to that list. And I am going to commit an act of treason here by saying that I am a lot fonder of the Hogarth era than the Fish era (and I cut my musical teeth on prog over 30 years ago, from Symphonic to RIO and beyond): I find Hogarth's vocal qualities a lot more emotionally compelling that what I got out of Fish. Granted, they have put out some albums with Hogarth that I personally think are kind of puzzling considering the heights they have scaled on Brave or Afraid of Sunlight, but they really found their own unique voice as a band with him, whereas I thought they were kind of derivative during the Fish era.
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http://quietearthorchestra.com
Free full album downloads at:
http://johnludi.com
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E-Dub
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Posted: July 02 2010 at 19:45 |
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^^I agree with the recommendations. In this order, Brave, Afraid Of Sunlight, Marbles (2 disc version) and Seasons End. All brilliant.
E
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: July 02 2010 at 23:59 |
E: I also consider you a friend, but I can't disagree more. I came here to talk about Prog bands (mainly), but there are good and bad Prog bands, I believe Marillion lost all the magic and personality without Fish, the best suggestion I can give to any person trying to listen a new band is to avoid Hogarth Marillion, which I find bland and boring.
When I was 16 and asked ELP post Works suggestions, I would had blessed an honest person who would had suggested not to buy any later album, I would had saved more or less US$ 20.00 that I needed to buy something better, mainly because I had to get my albums from USA being that in Perú Prog was almost non existent.
But nobody warned me, and I not only wasted 20 bucks (I was in school and needed them) but also could had asked a friend or relative for a different album from USA, instead of wasting my and their time in Works II and Love Beach, two albums that I hated and are gathering dust somewhere in my old music boxes..
If I would had started listening Genesis in the 80's, I would had paid somebody who suggested me not to buy any post Hackett albums, I bought ATTW3 and Duke the day they were released and also hated both.
The last time I bought an album I disliked was OVO, I wasn't yet in the forum and the name Peter Gabriel was enough for me, but it wasn't really a PG album and I lost my money, since then I have read reviews and suggestions (good and bad) before buying something and saved a lot of money that has been spent in something I enjoy.
We are here to give positive and negative advice, you can take it or leave it, THIS IS A DISCUSSION FORUM, NOT A MARILLION FAN CLUB, if this wasn't the case, we should only make reviews of albums we love and give 5 stars to everything...Of course the site would be useless, because we would be giving people the wrong idea that each and every album here is a masterpiece.
So I give my suggestions, if you like them or trust my taste, great, if not then ignore them, if somebody wants to read only praises, better try with the Marillion Fan Club.
Iván
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - July 03 2010 at 00:01
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: July 03 2010 at 00:09 |
sleeper wrote:
I dont go into the PT thread and tell people to not buy their albums, thats just trolling. When you someone asks for suggestions of where to start with a band, you know damn well what they mean and its not an opertunity to spout out on how much you dislike them. |
There's a great difference, this is a thread where a person asks for suggestions, I gave mine.
Porcupine's Tree Thread name is:
The official Prog Archives Porcupine Tree Thread!
A thread created by Porcupine Tree fans, to talk about Porcupine Tree, I don't like PT, you can read my reviews, but I don't dare to visit that thread, because nobody is asking a suggestion, only gathering to talk about their favourite band.
So it's not the same case Sleeper, giving an opinion is not trolling, is the main reason why we are here.....Or at least that's what I believe.
E-Dub wrote:
And perhaps you need to be reminded of what 'crapping all over a thread' is. Make sure this certain level-headiness is exhibited when somebody turns around and does something similar in a thread for a band you give a rat's cooter about. And it will happen.
E
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Eric: Friedre is absolutely right my friend, nobody started a thread to praise Hogarth Marillion, a guy I never saw asked for a suggestion, and I gave the only honest one I can give.
Nobody is crappin' a band you love, you didn't started this thread to say how great Hogarth is, we are giving a suggestion about a band you happen to love and we don't.
If we were forbidden to talk about a band somebody loves, we couldn't talk about any band, because even the worst one (If there's such thing as the worst one) has some fans.
Iván
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - July 03 2010 at 00:42
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BaldFriede
Prog Reviewer
Joined: June 02 2005
Location: Germany
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Posted: July 03 2010 at 00:37 |
E-Dub wrote:
And perhaps you need to be reminded of what 'crapping all over a thread' is. Make sure this certain level-headiness is exhibited when somebody turns around and does something similar in a thread for a band you give a rat's cooter about. And it will happen.
E
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The worst that can happen to a thread I started is that no-one replies to it, which sadly happens often enough. But Ivan's post was to the point; from the way the starter of the thread put it it was not clear at all that he had already heard Marillion of the Hogarth era and liked it. Crapping over a post is is definitely not what Ivan did.
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BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue.
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E-Dub
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Posted: July 03 2010 at 06:53 |
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^^Never said that Ivan was the only one crapping all over it. The ladies room was well occupied, as well.
I think the one thing you guys are missing is music is incredibly subjective. The very fact that we're having this discussion is proof of that. What you're saying is don't even give it a chance. How can you defend that? If he wants to spend his own money, that's his decision. But to persuade him to not even investigate is pure horse sh*t. Plain and simple. Somebody suggested he get the Crash Course disc, which is brilliant. It's a sampler disc, and since you two are overly concerned with his finances, it's FREE!!!! Just step back and let him decide.
I would never tell somebody not to explore different bands...whether I liked them or not. Sorry, but that's extremely short sighted. The world stretches far beyond me. I wish others felt the same way.
E
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E-Dub
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Posted: July 03 2010 at 07:01 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
sleeper wrote:
I dont go into the PT thread and tell people to not buy their albums, thats just trolling. When you someone asks for suggestions of where to start with a band, you know damn well what they mean and its not an opertunity to spout out on how much you dislike them. |
There's a great difference, this is a thread where a person asks for suggestions, I gave mine.
Porcupine's Tree Thread name is:
The official Prog Archives Porcupine Tree Thread!
A thread created by Porcupine Tree fans, to talk about Porcupine Tree, I don't like PT, you can read my reviews, but I don't dare to visit that thread, because nobody is asking a suggestion, only gathering to talk about their favourite band.
So it's not the same case Sleeper, giving an opinion is not trolling, is the main reason why we are here.....Or at least that's what I believe.
E-Dub wrote:
And perhaps you need to be reminded of what 'crapping all over a thread' is. Make sure this certain level-headiness is exhibited when somebody turns around and does something similar in a thread for a band you give a rat's cooter about. And it will happen.
E
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Eric: Friedre is absolutely right my friend, nobody started a thread to praise Hogarth Marillion, a guy I never saw asked for a suggestion, and I gave the only honest one I can give.
Nobody is crappin' a band you love, you didn't started this thread to say how great Hogarth is, we are giving a suggestion about a band you happen to love and we don't.
If we were forbidden to talk about a band somebody loves, we couldn't talk about any band, because even the worst one (If there's such thing as the worst one) has some fans.
Iván
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Ivan, DO NOT twist my words around. That really steams my ass. I never said that this was a Praise Hogarth thread. I'm merely defending the person's right to at least give it a chance. Pure and simple. I've heard people say, "You know, I don't personally like them, but I have found at that a lot of people like ....." I can look over at my CD cabinet and pull out a 10' high stack of discs of bands that I took a chance on. I think the stamp on this conversation is the very fact that the author personally informed us that the both of you were off the mark. That doesn't mean squat to you, apparently. E
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rushfan4
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Posted: July 03 2010 at 07:12 |
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I have to say that I am with you on this one E. Ivan and Friede are coming off as stereotypical prog snobs in this thread if you ask my opinion.
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E-Dub
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Posted: July 03 2010 at 09:04 |
BaldFriede wrote:
E-Dub wrote:
And perhaps you need to be reminded of what 'crapping all over a thread' is. Make sure this certain level-headiness is exhibited when somebody turns around and does something similar in a thread for a band you give a rat's cooter about. And it will happen.
E
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from the way the starter of the thread put it it was not clear at all that he had already heard Marillion of the Hogarth era and liked it.
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Maybe so, but who cares? That's such a small little nugget in the grand scheme of things. I clearly got the intentions of the author. And he was willing to try. OK, suppose somebody who was only familiar with the more hit oriented Genesis needed suggestions on where to begin with the Gabriel era. Somebody (not me because I love Gabriel era Genesis) comes in amongst genuine suggestions and goes, "I find the Gabriel era of Genesis to be too derivative and lacking of any quality whatsoever. Don't bother with it and stay with the Collins era." According to what I've read, that would be acceptable? E
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E-Dub
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Posted: July 03 2010 at 09:08 |
rushfan4 wrote:
I have to say that I am with you on this one E. Ivan and Friede are coming off as stereotypical prog snobs in this thread if you ask my opinion. |
I know Ivan pretty well and he definitely has strong opinions, and I can't fault him for that. I just don't consider it healthy to hinder somebody's willingness to explore. To me, that can never be a good thing. E
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The Monodrone
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Posted: July 03 2010 at 10:01 |
Sooo..... Brave it is then? 
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E-Dub
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Posted: July 03 2010 at 10:04 |
ptkc123 wrote:
Sooo..... Brave it is then? |
It's the best disc I own and absolutely love it. It didn't latch on to me right away, but once it did I knew I was in possession of something quite remarkable. My #2, 3, 4 ... discs are always a toss up; but, there's no question as to what my favorite is. Brilliant. E
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Hogarth-era Marillion Suggestions
