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JJLehto View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 23 2010 at 18:39
Here's what I think part of the problem is...paranoia.
I do understand where it is coming from, but I don't want some dictatorship, or even government run companies, just some rules/regulations whatever needs to be done to stop the from acting irresponsibly.
I assume the response would be "its a slippery road to communism" or "once their is power they will become a dictatorship" all that fun stuff.

Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. What if murdering people makes me happy? Can I do that?
Less extreme, if someone is made happy be stealing, can they just rob anyone because it's their right?
If a CEO finds happiness in making ever cent he can, should he be allowed to?  Sure. What  if it means screwing people? I don't want to limit profits, take money, run the company...just stop abuse.

Isn't that why there are laws prohibiting murder/theft and punishments for those who break them?
Or, is this just the price we have to pay for freedom?


Edited by JJLehto - June 23 2010 at 18:44
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 23 2010 at 19:19
Originally posted by JJLehto JJLehto wrote:

Here's what I think part of the problem is...paranoia.
I do understand where it is coming from, but I don't want some dictatorship, or even government run companies, just some rules/regulations whatever needs to be done to stop the from acting irresponsibly.
I assume the response would be "its a slippery road to communism" or "once their is power they will become a dictatorship" all that fun stuff.

Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. What if murdering people makes me happy? Can I do that?
Less extreme, if someone is made happy be stealing, can they just rob anyone because it's their right?
If a CEO finds happiness in making ever cent he can, should he be allowed to?  Sure. What  if it means screwing people? I don't want to limit profits, take money, run the company...just stop abuse.

Isn't that why there are laws prohibiting murder/theft and punishments for those who break them?
Or, is this just the price we have to pay for freedom?


"Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" aren't "inalienable rights" despite what numerous documents state.  We execute felons, imprison criminals, and...well, you are free to pursue happiness all you like.  No guarantees you shall find it.

I do not oppose any and all governmental restrictions on business, particularly when public safety is at risk.  But that comes with the territory of national security and public health, not making sure everybody has a job or money in his pocket.

Why is it liberals are content to demand strict governmental regulations on producers?  Why not control the economy by imposing strict regulations on consumers?  Think of it:  You get a list from the government telling you what brand of waffles you must buy.  What brand of razors.  What brand of beer.  What make of car.  What brand of tampons.  What brand of computer.  What websites you can visit and when.  Surely that would do it and keep people employed! 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 23 2010 at 19:48
Originally posted by JJLehto JJLehto wrote:

Yes, and if people like you Rob were running things than that'd be fine, but you know full well greed and the all mighty dollar are in power. How many people on top love liberty more than wealth? Not many I'd guess.

You know it's true Rob.

Hey, believe it or not I'm no socialist, I like money, I like profit, it's good to have a good living. What I don't like is greed, and I bet you'd agree. If people could be trusted then I'd say f*ck the government.  But over the course of time, and more recently in cases we can see, why do you want a totally unregulated private sector?

It has caused nothing but trouble.
At least greed used to be long run and that greed helped some other people....now greed is short run, and no one top helps anyone but themselves. The risk, and trouble is passed on to us. Manipulating markets, yadda yadda, Rob you know this is NOT true capitalism. Yet, you want to just let it go on? For the name of freedom? It is nice and all, but until the day can come that people can use freedom responibly I want some damn protection because ya know, I'd rather not get screwed over and just accept it as is.
 
 
I'm confused, isn't the government run by people?  Aw, well, I'm sure they are all pure of soul and in no way themselves greedy.
 
Anyway,
The free market (which doesn't really exist here) didn't fire your father but it would give him a chance to find a new job if legitimate market competition was actually allowed by the government.  Your anger is misplaced.  You really should be questioning where government regulation and the current Corporatist system has failed you.
 
"It is obvious that in unhampered labor markets, wages (at least for some occupations) would be lowered as a result of free competition. Changing demand conditions and technical advances make some occupations obsolete. The workers in those sectors either have to re-educate themselves to be able to perform different tasks, or become unemployable at a certain wage level. Market dynamics force nearly everyone to readjust from time to time—few are spared these painful changes.
But refusing to carry out this readjustment by using government coercion only creates opportunities for the foreign workers willing to work for much less then their American counterparts." (excerpt of the article I am about to link)
 
This article (should you chose to read it) should answer your questions about outsourcing more directly than I can:
http://mises.org/freemarket_detail.aspx?control=499


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 23 2010 at 19:54
Originally posted by manofmystery manofmystery wrote:

 
"It is obvious that in unhampered labor markets, wages (at least for some occupations) would be lowered as a result of free competition. Changing demand conditions and technical advances make some occupations obsolete. The workers in those sectors either have to re-educate themselves to be able to perform different tasks, or become unemployable at a certain wage level. Market dynamics force nearly everyone to readjust from time to time—few are spared these painful changes.
But refusing to carry out this readjustment by using government coercion only creates opportunities for the foreign workers willing to work for much less then their American counterparts."


I'm fine with that as long as re-education is possible as possibly government subsidized.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 23 2010 at 19:56
Anton, thanks for that article.  Looks like a good read for later tonight.  People do need to realize, while it makes them feel good to put the screws to business via regulation and high taxes, all that does is make business less likely to hire, and more likely to dump  benefits and hire contract workers.

Nice to see you around again btw!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 23 2010 at 19:58
This is nonsense. Outlawing outsourcing would result in higher prices for everything, a lower GDP and a lower standard of living for everyone in the country. Is that what you want? No one owes your father a job. He voluntarily agreed to provide a service for a specified wage and they voluntarily agreed to his conditions. When it became unprofitable for them to continue employing him, they stopped. Do you also think it should be illegal for your father to quit his job when it becomes unprofitable to keep it? How is that fair to the employer? They lost a valuable employee and now have to spend time and resources finding a new one. Or is it only thing that negatively affect you personally that you want to ban?

Everyone knows it is a bad business strategy to stay with the same firm for thirty years anyway.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 23 2010 at 20:12
Would also like people to consider The Law of Unintended Consequences before accepting regulation as the solution to anything.
 
And here is the article explaining this law:
plenty of examples, woohoo


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 23 2010 at 20:12
Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Originally posted by JJLehto JJLehto wrote:

Here's what I think part of the problem is...paranoia.
I do understand where it is coming from, but I don't want some dictatorship, or even government run companies, just some rules/regulations whatever needs to be done to stop the from acting irresponsibly.
I assume the response would be "its a slippery road to communism" or "once their is power they will become a dictatorship" all that fun stuff.

Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. What if murdering people makes me happy? Can I do that?
Less extreme, if someone is made happy be stealing, can they just rob anyone because it's their right?
If a CEO finds happiness in making ever cent he can, should he be allowed to?  Sure. What  if it means screwing people? I don't want to limit profits, take money, run the company...just stop abuse.

Isn't that why there are laws prohibiting murder/theft and punishments for those who break them?
Or, is this just the price we have to pay for freedom?


"Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" aren't "inalienable rights" despite what numerous documents state.  We execute felons, imprison criminals, and...well, you are free to pursue happiness all you like.  No guarantees you shall find it.

I do not oppose any and all governmental restrictions on business, particularly when public safety is at risk.  But that comes with the territory of national security and public health, not making sure everybody has a job or money in his pocket.

Why is it liberals are content to demand strict governmental regulations on producers?  Why not control the economy by imposing strict regulations on consumers?  Think of it:  You get a list from the government telling you what brand of waffles you must buy.  What brand of razors.  What brand of beer.  What make of car.  What brand of tampons.  What brand of computer.  What websites you can visit and when.  Surely that would do it and keep people employed! 


Because Rob, and don't play these silly games that so many people like to, you know when it comes to government regulation personal lives is where it's kept out. Again, I am not a communist here...obviously there's a difference between regulating producers/businesses and stepping in and saying "Rob you are going to buy X,Y,Z, this amount, and these specific brands". Like I said, liberalism does not equate to communism...and you know that man, cmon.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 23 2010 at 20:14
Originally posted by manofmystery manofmystery wrote:

Originally posted by JJLehto JJLehto wrote:

Yes, and if people like you Rob were running things than that'd be fine, but you know full well greed and the all mighty dollar are in power. How many people on top love liberty more than wealth? Not many I'd guess.

You know it's true Rob.

Hey, believe it or not I'm no socialist, I like money, I like profit, it's good to have a good living. What I don't like is greed, and I bet you'd agree. If people could be trusted then I'd say f*ck the government.  But over the course of time, and more recently in cases we can see, why do you want a totally unregulated private sector?

It has caused nothing but trouble.
At least greed used to be long run and that greed helped some other people....now greed is short run, and no one top helps anyone but themselves. The risk, and trouble is passed on to us. Manipulating markets, yadda yadda, Rob you know this is NOT true capitalism. Yet, you want to just let it go on? For the name of freedom? It is nice and all, but until the day can come that people can use freedom responibly I want some damn protection because ya know, I'd rather not get screwed over and just accept it as is.
 
 
I'm confused, isn't the government run by people?  Aw, well, I'm sure they are all pure of soul and in no way themselves greedy.
 
Anyway,
The free market (which doesn't really exist here) didn't fire your father but it would give him a chance to find a new job if legitimate market competition was actually allowed by the government.  Your anger is misplaced.  You really should be questioning where government regulation and the current Corporatist system has failed you.
 
"It is obvious that in unhampered labor markets, wages (at least for some occupations) would be lowered as a result of free competition. Changing demand conditions and technical advances make some occupations obsolete. The workers in those sectors either have to re-educate themselves to be able to perform different tasks, or become unemployable at a certain wage level. Market dynamics force nearly everyone to readjust from time to time—few are spared these painful changes.
But refusing to carry out this readjustment by using government coercion only creates opportunities for the foreign workers willing to work for much less then their American counterparts." (excerpt of the article I am about to link)
 
This article (should you chose to read it) should answer your questions about outsourcing more directly than I can:


OK dude, I'm pretty sure we've been through this before. I know full f*cking well, this is not a TRUE free market, capitalist system and if you want to put a word to it, Corporatist is a good one. Please, don't explain it again to me, I know, thank you.

As for that article, well it's almost the same story. I just gave it a quick read and it sounds like what I've heard in econ classes, government intervention for market failings is bad. But again, isn't that article being unrealistic since we DON'T live in a true free market system?


Edited by JJLehto - June 23 2010 at 20:21
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 23 2010 at 20:17
Originally posted by JJLehto JJLehto wrote:

Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Originally posted by JJLehto JJLehto wrote:

Here's what I think part of the problem is...paranoia.
I do understand where it is coming from, but I don't want some dictatorship, or even government run companies, just some rules/regulations whatever needs to be done to stop the from acting irresponsibly.
I assume the response would be "its a slippery road to communism" or "once their is power they will become a dictatorship" all that fun stuff.

Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. What if murdering people makes me happy? Can I do that?
Less extreme, if someone is made happy be stealing, can they just rob anyone because it's their right?
If a CEO finds happiness in making ever cent he can, should he be allowed to?  Sure. What  if it means screwing people? I don't want to limit profits, take money, run the company...just stop abuse.

Isn't that why there are laws prohibiting murder/theft and punishments for those who break them?
Or, is this just the price we have to pay for freedom?


"Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" aren't "inalienable rights" despite what numerous documents state.  We execute felons, imprison criminals, and...well, you are free to pursue happiness all you like.  No guarantees you shall find it.

I do not oppose any and all governmental restrictions on business, particularly when public safety is at risk.  But that comes with the territory of national security and public health, not making sure everybody has a job or money in his pocket.

Why is it liberals are content to demand strict governmental regulations on producers?  Why not control the economy by imposing strict regulations on consumers?  Think of it:  You get a list from the government telling you what brand of waffles you must buy.  What brand of razors.  What brand of beer.  What make of car.  What brand of tampons.  What brand of computer.  What websites you can visit and when.  Surely that would do it and keep people employed! 


Because Rob, and don't play these silly games that so many people like to, you know when it comes to government regulation personal lives is where it's kept out. Again, I am not a communist here...obviously there's a difference between regulating producers/businesses and stepping in and saying "Rob you are going to buy X,Y,Z, this amount, and these specific brands". Like I said, liberalism does not equate to communism...and you know that man, cmon.


You cut a nice arbitrary line between private lives and private business.  Yet you don't show why one should be affected and the other left alone.

"Obviously there's a difference?"  Nonsense.  If I start a business and the government tells me I have to keep your dad on for the rest of his life as an employee...how is that different?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 23 2010 at 20:28
Private life.
You have a work life, you have a private life.
I guess it's arbitrary but really, you know the government can't say "Rob you will have sex with your wife this way, these days, and you two can't do anything from this list....Rob, you will buy this car, etc" To you it may be arbitrary and maybe I can't define where the line is off the top of my head, but I think most would grant in real life, it's there and that can't be crossed.

I guess as libertarian you don't like lines, but it applies again with your second comment. Most would probably say "keeping X as an employee for life" is overstepping it.
Couldn't one would argue, the government can't tell you what cereal to eat. But, that's you, as a CEO actions impact many. Maybe it would inhibit your freedom a bit, but I just think a few need to be prevented from taking outright steps that hurt many.

Anyway, we're getting into ideological stuff now, which is really beyond debate. I guess I'll leave this thread in peace and just go with "Suppose I'm Stalin"


Edited by JJLehto - June 23 2010 at 20:30
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 23 2010 at 20:35
And Anton, that is an interesting article, and like I said I've heard it before in classes...but how do we get to that true free market state you like to mention?
By keeping hands completely off? Or will that simply lead to the abuse we've seen? I mean, how can we get to that true capitalist society?


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 23 2010 at 20:36
Originally posted by JJLehto JJLehto wrote:


Maybe it would inhibit your freedom a bit, but I just think a few need to be prevented from taking outright steps that hurt many.


What do you mean by "few" and "many"? Outsourcing helps millions by creating lower prices and a higher standard of living. It also helps the foreigners that are employed by the practice. Surely it is not only the welfare of Americans with which you are concerned? It also helps the company by allowing it to earn higher profits. It also helps the shareholders of that company by paying them bigger dividends. I think you are not looking at the big picture, my friend.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 23 2010 at 20:45
We're lucky that we can be so worldly here, llama. In terms of real life application, as harsh as it may sound (coming from a liberal I know!) can one really think about foreign countries and the good it will produce for them?
If I was elected into office tomorrow, am I representing India? Am I representing a state in China? No.

So, I guess the simple answer is, "It sucks, but that's how it goes"
Fine, I can live with it....however, I want to see things recover in a few years. We've seen jobless recovers, job LOSS recoveries. And now the recession is over but unemployment still near 10%. I HOPE the recovery will trickle to the main street soon from wall street and if so then all is good for another 10-20 years, but if there are no job to return to, how will we recover? What jobs will their be in 10 years? Are we all supposed to work sh*t jobs/ start our own business/ become engineers?


Edited by JJLehto - June 23 2010 at 20:47
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 23 2010 at 20:47
Originally posted by JJLehto JJLehto wrote:

Private life.
You have a work life, you have a private life.
I guess it's arbitrary but really, you know the government can't say "Rob you will have sex with your wife this way, these days, and you two can't do anything from this list....Rob, you will buy this car, etc" To you it may be arbitrary and maybe I can't define where the line is off the top of my head, but I think most would grant in real life, it's there and that can't be crossed.

I guess as libertarian you don't like lines, but it applies again with your second comment. Most would probably say "keeping X as an employee for life" is overstepping it.
Couldn't one would argue, the government can't tell you what cereal to eat. But, that's you, as a CEO actions impact many. Maybe it would inhibit your freedom a bit, but I just think a few need to be prevented from taking outright steps that hurt many.

Anyway, we're getting into ideological stuff now, which is really beyond debate. I guess I'll leave this thread in peace and just go with "Suppose I'm Stalin"


Your entire stance is ironic.  You bewail your father's loss without looking at any benefits for hundreds or even thousands of others.  Is your father better than a father in China?  If so, why?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 23 2010 at 20:54
I guess which matters more? The livelihood of someone in China or someone here?
We can talk about it all we want but as a leader, I'd think your focus is limited by it.

As for being personal, my situation is not the only, many others in this country are in the same boat, you seem to have alluded that you were also in that boat. It's not that I want to help ME, want to help us..but c'mon, its easier to use my persona example.
Fine, I guess things will somehow be righted, and everything will be good for another 10 to 20 years until the next recession comes, then repeat.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 23 2010 at 20:58
Ermm Maybe I'm callous, but I seriously care for the well-being of my family more than others. My emotions can not afford to be spread so thin over hypothetical suffering in places around the world. Excuse my lack of a bleeding heart, but if my family was put in a hard place because of outsourcing, you bet your ass I wouldn't write it off because someone some where else got a job. Family matters more than others--maybe not in an objective sense, but in a "me-giving-a-sh*t-about-the-issue" sense.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 23 2010 at 20:59
FWIW, JJ, I'm really sorry to hear about your Dad's job... that blows.  I'm no fan of globalization personally, though I realize the genie is out of the bottle and there's no going back.   But the issues aside, I hope your Dad finds something better soon and wish him luck, I know so many people hurting in this economy. 
Help him keep his spirits up.  Smile
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 23 2010 at 20:59
Originally posted by JJLehto JJLehto wrote:

Private life.
You have a work life, you have a private life.
I guess it's arbitrary but really, you know the government can't say "Rob you will have sex with your wife this way, these days, and you two can't do anything from this list....Rob, you will buy this car, etc" To you it may be arbitrary and maybe I can't define where the line is off the top of my head, but I think most would grant in real life, it's there and that can't be crossed.

I guess as libertarian you don't like lines, but it applies again with your second comment. Most would probably say "keeping X as an employee for life" is overstepping it.
Couldn't one would argue, the government can't tell you what cereal to eat. But, that's you, as a CEO actions impact many. Maybe it would inhibit your freedom a bit, but I just think a few need to be prevented from taking outright steps that hurt many.
 
 
The few would have to be those in goverment because in the free market system it is the many that rule.  A CEO in the libertarian system of governance has only the market (all of us) to answer to while in our current system he has to make the politicians and bureaucrats happy as well.  That distorts the market and also leads to corruption.
And the government does limit what you can buy by regulating what companies can produce.  An example of this would be light bulbs: in 2012 new efficiency standards will effectively eliminate incandescent bulbs(ah, lobbyists using junk science to work the market for their own gain through DC).  They also limit what you can buy by telling you what you can not by.  An example of this would be cigarettes: flavored cigs are now banned (except for menthols, curiously,  hmmm, they must be safer somehow) leaving those wanting their nicotine fix fewer options.  A sidenote: banning something does not prevent it's use, it just creates a black market.
 
Did you really read the article?


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 23 2010 at 21:03
Originally posted by stonebeard stonebeard wrote:

Ermm Maybe I'm callous, but I seriously care for the well-being of my family more than others. My emotions can not afford to be spread so thin over hypothetical suffering in places around the world. Excuse my lack of a bleeding heart, but if my family was put in a hard place because of outsourcing, you bet your ass I wouldn't write it off because someone some where else got a job. Family matters more than others--maybe not in an objective sense, but in a "me-giving-a-sh*t-about-the-issue" sense.


That is an entirely healthy attitude and I completely approve of it. You should care more about your family than the families of others, but lobbying for government bans for things you personally don't like, regardless of the consequences is, I believe, very foolish.
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