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Topic ClosedThe Most Challenging Prog You've Ever Heard

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Scoppioingola View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 14 2010 at 09:26
Originally posted by Niv Niv wrote:

The Lamb Lies Down On Broadway. After nearly a year of listening I'm only just beginning to truly hear how good it really is. It had no effect on me at all first listen, but very gradually, the more I hear it the more I like it.


Ditto, but I still don't know what's so great about it. What pains me is that I'm a huge Genesis fan, and I still can't wrap my head around this one...
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 14 2010 at 10:08
Most Frank Zappa seems a bit "unaccessible" at first listen, but once you familiarize yourself with the nuances of the music I find it to be quite rewarding.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 14 2010 at 10:10
It's quite funny that albums some find to be very chalenging are realy easy to digest to others so the main thing I learned from this discussion is that it is very subjective. In my case "The lamb" was an immediate love afair (I was 18 at that time) and Sleepytime gorila museum (Of natural history) is quite accesible.
I'll mention 3 examples of what I find challenging :
1. Universe zero - Heresie. This is a very classic oriented album with very dark atitude. It is quite obvious that it is good, rich, complex and deep but I need to be in a very optimistic mood to dare to put it on.
2. Henry cow - Western culture. Very dysonant. Beautyful to my ears but needs very devoted hearing. What's funny is that "In praise of learning" is very listenable IMO.
3. Pink floyd - Ummagumma. After quite a few listens I still do not understand it so I can't realy say if it's good and chalenging or does not make sense (and I find "Saucer full of secrets" an accesible album so don't ask me what's the difference. I don't know myself).
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 14 2010 at 10:11
Beaubourg by Vangelis is tough going.
''Nobody realizes that some people expend tremendous energy merely to be normal.''

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 14 2010 at 10:14
Originally posted by Henry Plainview Henry Plainview wrote:

 
Here we go again, all the way to the examples of things that nobody does to complain about music you don't like. No, music that is too avant-garde for you is not meaningless! And by what method do you assign meaning?

Don't you just love it when someone jumps in with a condiscendent reply, assuming you're an idiot? I know I do.

So now I need to explain my position. 
If we talk about paintings, I guess there is little to no doubt that Caravaggio's Beheading of St. John the Baptist makes more sense as a painting than, I don't know, Fontana's cut. So, while talking about "meaning" in absolutistic terms doesn't make much sense, you certainly can talk about meaning in relative terms. Fontana's cut has close to no meaning at all when you compare it to a painting by Caravaggio. It's not inaccessible, it's just a terrible, terrible excuse for a painting, if you analyze it AS a painting. Its significance goes well beyond that. 

Now, one can safely say that Fontana's cut is like farting for 50minutes on a cd. If it has a meaning, it's not, or at least not mainly, about music. If we listen to this, for example:

Originally posted by Henry Plainview Henry Plainview wrote:

Otomo Yoshide [sic] probably has the most challenging discography on here. Consume Red is 5 second sample looped for 45 minutes, and Cathode is high pitched droning sine waves. 

can't we say that this is the Fontana's cut of music? What can we say about it if we only look at it as a piece of music? Couldn't we safely say it has no meaning in comparison to Pink Floyd's Confortably numb
And what does the topic ask? What's the most inaccessible PROG. Is this prog? What the hell, is this even music? 
This is more of an experiment than music. It's ART but I am not sure it has much sense if you confine it  into the boundaries of "music". Imho, this goes beyond, just like Fontana's cut. Avant-garde some times is just like visual art. You can't fully appreciate it if you don't expand your point of view.

In conclusion, am I saying Consume Red is musically bad? Yes. Am I saying it doesn't make any sense naming YoshiHIde when talking about inaccessible progressive rock? Yes. Do I consider Yoshihide an artist? Yes. Do I need to justify myself to fanboys who name obscure acts when it's not apt and feel like they are so good because they understand weird music and you don't? Apparently yes.


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 14 2010 at 10:18
Originally posted by Henry Plainview Henry Plainview wrote:

My first impulse was to say that the free improvisation sections of Henry Cow, John Zorn, and whoever else listed here that secretly would prefer playing free jazz

BTW, I deeply agree with you on this. It's not about it being inaccessible, it's that you get the feeling it's all very superfluous, as you clearly imply. 
But what do I know, maybe we don't fully like it but it makes heaps of sense to other guys, as you reminded me later on when I expressed a similar judgement on something YOU like.


Edited by Camel666 - June 14 2010 at 10:27
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 14 2010 at 11:08
Originally posted by DT-PT DT-PT wrote:

That was the case with me and Gentle Giant.
I am with you.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 14 2010 at 11:33
Originally posted by Adams Bolero Adams Bolero wrote:

Beaubourg by Vangelis is tough going.

I can identify with that sentiment.  I gave up on it long ago and won't be ever tempted to try it in CD form. LOL
I'm going to have to nominate Trout Mask Replica.  I first encountered it in CD form.  I keep it in my collection and in rotation, but it makes my ears bleed. Tongue
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 14 2010 at 11:39
Originally posted by Captain Clutch Captain Clutch wrote:

Originally posted by beebs beebs wrote:



 In this era, I'd have to go with Mars Volta. Definitely an acquired taste.


That's just because the singer has a horrible voiceDead
 
Could not agree more. I reckon i'd absolutely love the band if i could stomach the singing
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 14 2010 at 12:17
I feel that there is a distinction between challenging and demanding material. I find most new music from other genres than Symphonic Prog, Crossover Prog and Prog Folk to be challenging. So far, there are only  three albums the I consider to be demanding no matter how much I listen to them:


Can - Tago Mago


Captain Beefheart - Trout Mask Replica



Univers Zero - Heresie


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 14 2010 at 12:23
Anything by Kayo Dot is extremely hard for me to get in to; I have been listening to CotE and it's getting a little easier. Smile
    
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 14 2010 at 12:58
Originally posted by bsms810 bsms810 wrote:

Originally posted by Captain Clutch Captain Clutch wrote:

Originally posted by beebs beebs wrote:



 In this era, I'd have to go with Mars Volta. Definitely an acquired taste.


That's just because the singer has a horrible voiceDead
 
Could not agree more. I reckon i'd absolutely love the band if i could stomach the singing

While he certainly has a *ahem* "unique" voice, I think it actually fits the music very well.

That said, I agree that TMV are very difficult to get into. I had Frances the Mute for 3 or 4 years before I started enjoying it.
"The meaning of life is to give life meaning."-Arjen Lucassen
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 14 2010 at 13:05
Originally posted by Adams Bolero Adams Bolero wrote:

Beaubourg by Vangelis is tough going.
I hear you there.  There was only a brief period of time when I could say that I 'got it.'  Usually when I reach that point, I keep it.  Not with this album though.  I understood it, at least in my own way, but then it slipped away from me.
 
The word "challenging" to me indicates that there is some kind of enjoyable pay-off for taking the effort to appreciate the music.  It may be difficult to hear all of what is going on, or to get an understanding of what the artist is trying to convey.  As far as rock is concerned, I would say Gentle Giant.  Their music is so intricate I have to listen several times to even hear all of what is going on.  Beyond that is the fusion music of Miles Davis, especially Bitches Brew.  There are so many layers to the music that it sounds almost like different pieces every time I listen.  The same is true for his Tribute to Jack Johnson.  Two of Herbie Hancock's albums, Mwandishi and Crossings, have similar depth.  In another way, The Residents are a challenge in that they have created their own musical language that is consistent with itself but not much with anything else (nor is it simply noise).  All of these example fits my criteria - I took up the gauntlet, listened attentively, and came to a deeper appreciation for music because of it.  These artists challenged my conventions of music, and I enjoy them all.
The world of sound is certainly capable of infinite variety and, were our sense developed, of infinite extensions. -- George Santayana, "The Sense of Beauty"
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 14 2010 at 13:12
Some of the best music I have is challenging, in the sense it took a while to get into. Floyd certainly fell into that category, as does Waters' solo material - genius, but appreciated after a few listens.

However, I would say that the answer to the question for me would be VDGG - hugely rewarding when you appreciate it, but very hard work getting there, with all of their work.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 14 2010 at 16:43
Krautrock and Zeuhl could be a bit challenging at first listen.... I had some problems with avant-garde music but after several listenings I liked it!
The trick here is give several listenings to the album with positivity and open-mind thats all!
Prog´ everyday in every way of your life including music!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 14 2010 at 20:15
I still can't stand some of the tracks on Henry Cow's In Praise of Learning, but I think Western Culture is perfection from start to finish. Also- Bitches Brew, Egg's tone generator bits, and The Mars Volta.. :<
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 14 2010 at 20:40
^ Hey, I'm also from Indiana! ...and the Mars Volta rock!
    
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 14 2010 at 21:21
This isn't worthy of a special thread, but make Trout Mask Replica interesting for me.Rawks
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 14 2010 at 21:39
Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

This isn't worthy of a special thread, but make Trout Mask Replica interesting for me.Rawks


1. the sax solo on Ant Man Bee
2. the background vocals on Neon Meate Dream of a Octofish
3. the song Sugar and Spikes

try it
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 14 2010 at 22:23
Unexpect terrified me when I first heard it and I'm not a metal/extreme noob. It requires nerves of steel to sit through a record of theirs.
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