Spiritual but not religious?

AtomicCrimsonRush wrote: ^ As far as belief in God is concerned I will never change my mind there. It is ingrained deep within me and I have experienced some incredible things when i was on a missionary trip - things that would astound you if you were there.

Arguments from revelation are useless in debates though. Usually Theists get pretty angry when I tell them that I don't care about their personal experiences, no matter how mind (or heart) blowing they might seem to them.

AtomicCrimsonRush wrote: but I dont need evidence I knwo that i know and that should be celebrated not shunned. i see many pple on this thread trying to impress their popinions intellectually and its futile as God is interested in the heart not the intellect.

You assert that. How do you know what God is interested in? Not even the Gospels agreed on that.

AtomicCrimsonRush wrote:  You gove youtr HEART to him not your INTELLECT. I have met many educated fools with hearts of stone, but it is those with a soft heart towards God that make the decison to follow him and if you harden your heart nothing can break through until a revealing of Gods love is made. I used to be like you once i know it. And i was dead against religion or Christianity but i was an educated fool, when i opened my heart to God he came into my life and life was beautiful. darkness became light - it is my testimony and it is real.  and it is beautiful thing and it changed my life. I love God and i will never leave Him asd He will never leave Him. its not delusional its a relationship. i preached this message this Sunday would you believe about the lost as i was speaking at my church, it was a powerful time.

There are many born again Christians ... usually deep personal crisis can trigger such an event. I hope it never happens to me - I would like to keep my rationality. Hope this doesn't offend you - on the other hand you indirectly called me an educated fool, which I don't take as an offense either.


Edited by Mr ProgFreak - June 09 2010 at 13:08

Dean wrote: ^ part of the reason for stating an argument on this or any discussion is to test your own convictions, not to change anyone else's.   If you make a statement that someone counters then your reaction is to strengthen your own argument, and they will strengthen their's in return. That's the draw and the attraction of any argument, not to win, but to develop your own opinion and come out of the debate with a stronger conviction than you began with. This is why we would chose to argue with someone with the polar opposite opinion of our own rather than discuss the subject with someone who agrees with us; debate is far better than concord.

jampa17 wrote: Mr ProgFreak wrote: jampa17 wrote: Hey Mike, do you believe in love...? I think that is fundamental to "Understand" why God exists... Yes I do, but I don't think that love is what the Christian God is all about. I'm sure that many Christians feel like love is the essence of Christianity, but God is also vindictive and cruel. Your loving father can send you right to hell without pity or remorse, should you choose to follow the wrong prophet. He will also let you suffer in this life, no matter how much you pray. I believe in love, but I also believe that it's a concept that's not tied to religion.   Oh... that wasn't my point... my point is that you believe in love, something that you can't explain or "prove" through science... just through emotions... which you can't explain as well... if you can prove your love (and all we here knows that love is not about chocolates, roses and chickflics) then I can prove you God... is something that exists, that you know is there and that you can't explain...

Love is something that you feel. Now, you can say that it's the same with God, but *not* when it comes to Christianity. If I was to say "I feel God's presence", that would not be enough in order to call myself Christian. You also have to believe in Jesus, and that he was resurrected, and that through his sacrifice I'm saved ... at least according to the gospel of John that's an absolute requirement. That's where religious doctrine comes into play, which has nothing to do with any emotion like love or compassion ... or spirituality for that matter.

jampa17 wrote:   Prove me the existence of love, and I'll prove you God... and as an outsider, you missed completely the gospel, is not that you have to know it... but God is not vindictive and cruel... there's a lot to do with his pitty, and his love for mankind... but that's a complex subject... I know what the Church said about it... it's just complicated to explain and to understand for an outsider...

There's a difference between love and the "fact" that Jesus was resurrected.

http://www.amazon.com/Jesus-Interrupted-Revealing-Hidden-Contradictions/dp/0061173940

I'm currently reading this book - and I like it a lot. Mind you, the author is an accomplished scholar who has been teaching at respected universities for decades (respected also by Christians). I recommend it strongly to every Christian who may not yet be aware of the historic details of the new testament - who wrote the books, how do they differ in key aspects of Jesus' life and the core elements of the religion. The author is very careful when making claims, and he's also very respectful.


Edited by Mr ProgFreak - June 10 2010 at 00:59

Mr ProgFreak wrote: Deathrabbit wrote: Dean wrote: ^ part of the reason for stating an argument on this or any discussion is to test your own convictions, not to change anyone else's.   If you make a statement that someone counters then your reaction is to strengthen your own argument, and they will strengthen their's in return. That's the draw and the attraction of any argument, not to win, but to develop your own opinion and come out of the debate with a stronger conviction than you began with. This is why we would chose to argue with someone with the polar opposite opinion of our own rather than discuss the subject with someone who agrees with us; debate is far better than concord. With all due respect, this was nothing like constructive debate/criticism. Either that, or we read two very different threads. This is just a group of people lashing out at those different than them, because they can do so here without fear of reprisal. As T pointed out, the one who belongs to the group panned for irrationality is the one that is acting the most like an adult here. What constitutes "lashing out"? Would you call that person an adult if he happened to be defending the belief in the Easter bunny ... or are you offended whenever someone criticizes the beliefs of another person? Sorry, but IMO beliefs are fair game for debate, just like any other aspect of life. If someone believes something that there is no evidence for, a lot of circumstantial evidence against, and it affects his life as well as that of his children, at the very least I will point that out to him and ask him to explain it to me. If the only explanation is an argument of revelation and reference to scripture which we can't even attribute to a specific author in most cases, where one book contradicts another and most contain pieces of information that we know to be false, can't I at least point out that that person's position is on shaky grounds? But maybe you meant someone else.

I was watching on the news this morning how FB is affecting Corporate/Company profiles where social debate is hindering productivity in the workplace. for me who was made redundant a couple of years ago, I still agree with the Corporates.....slam dunk these overzealous cyberjunkies

I presume he means Facebook, Mike.

Mr ProgFreak wrote: I don't know what FB means. But about respecting beliefs: Why is that a good thing? What positive effects can respecting religious beliefs have, what are negative effects of not respecting religious beliefs?

James wrote: I presume he means Facebook, Mike.

Sure did he= Chris

Proletariat wrote: Mr ProgFreak wrote: I don't know what FB means. But about respecting beliefs: Why is that a good thing? What positive effects can respecting religious beliefs have, what are negative effects of not respecting religious beliefs? Positives of respect: one can reach a higher understanding of ones own self one can put asside differences for a task at hand one can prevent bias from ruining relationships one can avoid causing another emotional pain

This is a GOOD thing

James wrote: Proletariat wrote: ^^^ my attempt at an answer then. It has been shown that the idea of god is wired into the human brain (atleast the sensations surrownding prayer/worship/meditation) this sensation is wired into our DNA, some have it stronger than others. Perhaps god put this DNA marker there. Perhaps it contributes to survival and was passed down via survival of the fittest. Regardless I see many of the effects of religion being positive and therefore may not believe myself but would not "battle" religion as some do.   I see many effects of religion as a good thing too.  I don't have an issue with it.  It brings communities together.  It gets people thinking about others and maybe helping them.  The Bible is good for morals as well. It's the God part I cannot fathom.  I can see a reason why people would conceive of such an idea.  People are scared of dying and ultimately don't want it to be the end.  They also have no idea how we got here and so God is an easy way of dealing with that. Obviously there is more to it than that though. However, I have coped perfectly fine with my atheism (a term I do not like to personally use even though that would be the label that best fits) and have never once felt the need to follow anyone but myself. I must lack that DNA then.  As I have never once believed in a God (except for maybe as a child but that was due to my teachers, most likely as my parents are not religious either and didn't mention God or Religion).

but you could experience trance state. if not via prayer or meditation then a good healthy dose of Mescaline would do the trick

James wrote: This leads back to the original query about Spirituality. Yes, you can be "spiritual" (which is not the correct word) without being religious, as you rightly say.  You can indeed experience a high-state of consciousness, whether via drugs or something else (such as music, prayer, yoga, politics &c.) and therefore reach a transcendental state.  I would not say this has any link to religion and/or the belief in a God though. However, I am not one to follow a religion or philosophy and if I were, I would never do so blindly.  I follow myself. I would not call myself "spiritual" though.  I rarely feel a sense of higher purpose (I used to slightly) and I can visit churches, forests, beautiful places or indeed, listen to great music and only rarely will I feel any form of higher purpose or any kind of enlightenment.

so, ubermench, you are like nietche your own diety with no reverence for what others revere, this does not make you unique necesarilly. your higher person then is yourself.