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Dean ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
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^ part of the reason for stating an argument on this or any discussion is to test your own convictions, not to change anyone else's.
If you make a statement that someone counters then your reaction is to strengthen your own argument, and they will strengthen their's in return. That's the draw and the attraction of any argument, not to win, but to develop your own opinion and come out of the debate with a stronger conviction than you began with. This is why we would chose to argue with someone with the polar opposite opinion of our own rather than discuss the subject with someone who agrees with us; debate is far better than concord.
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What?
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Mr ProgFreak ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: November 08 2008 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 5195 |
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Arguments from revelation are useless in debates though. Usually Theists get pretty angry when I tell them that I don't care about their personal experiences, no matter how mind (or heart) blowing they might seem to them.
You assert that. How do you know what God is interested in? Not even the Gospels agreed on that.
There are many born again Christians ... usually deep personal crisis can trigger such an event. I hope it never happens to me - I would like to keep my rationality. Hope this doesn't offend you - on the other hand you indirectly called me an educated fool, which I don't take as an offense either. ![]() Edited by Mr ProgFreak - June 09 2010 at 13:08 |
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jampa17 ![]() Prog Reviewer ![]() ![]() Joined: July 04 2009 Location: Guatemala Status: Offline Points: 6802 |
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Oh... that wasn't my point... my point is that you believe in love, something that you can't explain or "prove" through science... just through emotions... which you can't explain as well... if you can prove your love (and all we here knows that love is not about chocolates, roses and chickflics) then I can prove you God... is something that exists, that you know is there and that you can't explain...
Prove me the existence of love, and I'll prove you God... and as an outsider, you missed completely the gospel, is not that you have to know it... but God is not vindictive and cruel... there's a lot to do with his pitty, and his love for mankind... but that's a complex subject... I know what the Church said about it... it's just complicated to explain and to understand for an outsider... Edited by jampa17 - June 09 2010 at 14:56 |
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Failcore ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: October 27 2006 Status: Offline Points: 4625 |
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With all due respect, this was nothing like constructive debate/criticism. Either that, or we read two very different threads. This is just a group of people lashing out at those different than them, because they can do so here without fear of reprisal. As T pointed out, the one who belongs to the group panned for irrationality is the one that is acting the most like an adult here.
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Slartibartfast ![]() Collaborator ![]() ![]() Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam Joined: April 29 2006 Location: Atlantais Status: Offline Points: 29630 |
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Shameless plug. Edited by Slartibartfast - June 10 2010 at 00:22 |
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Mr ProgFreak ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: November 08 2008 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 5195 |
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Love is something that you feel. Now, you can say that it's the same with God, but *not* when it comes to Christianity. If I was to say "I feel God's presence", that would not be enough in order to call myself Christian. You also have to believe in Jesus, and that he was resurrected, and that through his sacrifice I'm saved ... at least according to the gospel of John that's an absolute requirement. That's where religious doctrine comes into play, which has nothing to do with any emotion like love or compassion ... or spirituality for that matter.
There's a difference between love and the "fact" that Jesus was resurrected. http://www.amazon.com/Jesus-Interrupted-Revealing-Hidden-Contradictions/dp/0061173940 I'm currently reading this book - and I like it a lot. Mind you, the author is an accomplished scholar who has been teaching at respected universities for decades (respected also by Christians). I recommend it strongly to every Christian who may not yet be aware of the historic details of the new testament - who wrote the books, how do they differ in key aspects of Jesus' life and the core elements of the religion. The author is very careful when making claims, and he's also very respectful. Edited by Mr ProgFreak - June 10 2010 at 00:59 |
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Mr ProgFreak ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: November 08 2008 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 5195 |
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What constitutes "lashing out"? Would you call that person an adult if he happened to be defending the belief in the Easter bunny ... or are you offended whenever someone criticizes the beliefs of another person? Sorry, but IMO beliefs are fair game for debate, just like any other aspect of life. If someone believes something that there is no evidence for, a lot of circumstantial evidence against, and it affects his life as well as that of his children, at the very least I will point that out to him and ask him to explain it to me. If the only explanation is an argument of revelation and reference to scripture which we can't even attribute to a specific author in most cases, where one book contradicts another and most contain pieces of information that we know to be false, can't I at least point out that that person's position is on shaky grounds? But maybe you meant someone else. ![]() Edited by Mr ProgFreak - June 10 2010 at 01:07 |
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Chris S ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Honorary Collaborator Joined: June 09 2004 Location: Front Range Status: Offline Points: 7028 |
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Still PF respect peoples beliefs, even if scripture puts them in raptures....it is a GOOD thing
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...As I venture through the slipstream, between the viaducts in your dreams...[/COLOR] |
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Mr ProgFreak ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: November 08 2008 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 5195 |
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I don't know what FB means. But about respecting beliefs: Why is that a good thing? What positive effects can respecting religious beliefs have, what are negative effects of not respecting religious beliefs?
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VanderGraafKommandöh ![]() Prog Reviewer ![]() ![]() Joined: July 04 2005 Location: Malaria Status: Offline Points: 89372 |
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I presume he means Facebook, Mike.
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Proletariat ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: March 30 2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1882 |
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Even when I am on "the same side" with you on this I find this post rediculously insulting and degrading. Both to religious believers and yourself for stooping to the obligatory "easter bunny analogy"
There are so many good cases for athiesm that do not reside soley in similarities
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who hiccuped endlessly trying to giggle but wound up with a sob
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Proletariat ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: March 30 2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1882 |
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Positives of respect:
one can reach a higher understanding of ones own self
one can put asside differences for a task at hand
one can prevent bias from ruining relationships
one can avoid causing another emotional pain
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who hiccuped endlessly trying to giggle but wound up with a sob
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VanderGraafKommandöh ![]() Prog Reviewer ![]() ![]() Joined: July 04 2005 Location: Malaria Status: Offline Points: 89372 |
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I never mention Easter Bunnies.
Besides, Rob actually said it was a thoughtful post. There are indeed many cases for Atheism but I was only mentioning this one as it's one I can easily grasp. I cannot go into detail about Scripture or the Bible as I have very little knowledge of any of it and do not desire to. I did not ever mean it as insulting or degrading and I believe you're reading too much into that post. It is a valid analogy. Rob was unable to answer a question expressed by Mike in relation to it either. I do not feel it is at all hypocritical of me to use this analogy. Edited by James - June 10 2010 at 02:05 |
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Chris S ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Honorary Collaborator Joined: June 09 2004 Location: Front Range Status: Offline Points: 7028 |
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...As I venture through the slipstream, between the viaducts in your dreams...[/COLOR] |
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Proletariat ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: March 30 2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1882 |
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^^^
my attempt at an answer then.
It has been shown that the idea of god is wired into the human brain (atleast the sensations surrownding prayer/worship/meditation) this sensation is wired into our DNA, some have it stronger than others. Perhaps god put this DNA marker there. Perhaps it contributes to survival and was passed down via survival of the fittest. Regardless I see many of the effects of religion being positive and therefore may not believe myself but would not "battle" religion as some do.
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who hiccuped endlessly trying to giggle but wound up with a sob
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Chris S ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Honorary Collaborator Joined: June 09 2004 Location: Front Range Status: Offline Points: 7028 |
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...As I venture through the slipstream, between the viaducts in your dreams...[/COLOR] |
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VanderGraafKommandöh ![]() Prog Reviewer ![]() ![]() Joined: July 04 2005 Location: Malaria Status: Offline Points: 89372 |
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I see many effects of religion as a good thing too. I don't have an issue with it. It brings communities together. It gets people thinking about others and maybe helping them. The Bible is good for morals as well. It's the God part I cannot fathom. I can see a reason why people would conceive of such an idea. People are scared of dying and ultimately don't want it to be the end. They also have no idea how we got here and so God is an easy way of dealing with that. Obviously there is more to it than that though. However, I have coped perfectly fine with my atheism (a term I do not like to personally use even though that would be the label that best fits) and have never once felt the need to follow anyone but myself. I must lack that DNA then. As I have never once believed in a God (except for maybe as a child but that was due to my teachers, most likely as my parents are not religious either and didn't mention God or Religion). By the way, do you have a source for your claim? Edited by James - June 10 2010 at 02:23 |
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Proletariat ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: March 30 2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1882 |
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![]() ![]() but on a more serious note perhaps you have experienced irrational belief in this fasion. the disire for somthing more. if not religion than perhaps a political stance or significant issue, perhaps there is some cause that gives you a sence of higher purpose.
if nothing else perhaps prog is your trancendance
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who hiccuped endlessly trying to giggle but wound up with a sob
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VanderGraafKommandöh ![]() Prog Reviewer ![]() ![]() Joined: July 04 2005 Location: Malaria Status: Offline Points: 89372 |
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This leads back to the original query about Spirituality.
Yes, you can be "spiritual" (which is not the correct word) without being religious, as you rightly say. You can indeed experience a high-state of consciousness, whether via drugs or something else (such as music, prayer, yoga, politics &c.) and therefore reach a transcendental state. I would not say this has any link to religion and/or the belief in a God though. However, I am not one to follow a religion or philosophy and if I were, I would never do so blindly. I follow myself. I would not call myself "spiritual" though. I rarely feel a sense of higher purpose (I used to slightly) and I can visit churches, forests, beautiful places or indeed, listen to great music and only rarely will I feel any form of higher purpose or any kind of enlightenment. Edited by James - June 10 2010 at 02:35 |
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Proletariat ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: March 30 2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1882 |
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correct me if i missunderstood
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who hiccuped endlessly trying to giggle but wound up with a sob
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