Michael Moore

The cheese munching watch makers are also quite a wealthy bunch.  Not the same issues of poverty in the mountains!

Edited by akamaisondufromage - June 02 2010 at 14:18

Epignosis wrote:   So why do you or Brian think the murder rate in Switzerland is so low?

Epignosis wrote: So why do you or Brian think the murder rate in Switzerland is so low?  I'd think twice before going to shoot up a grocery store or bank if pretty much every young man between 20 and 30 is trained, well-disciplined, and armed.  Not really, if you are unhinged you don't really care. My purpose is showing that a proliferation of guns is not the issue in the US.  Nay, imposing strict bans on guns in the US has led to more gun violence, not less.  I've argued time and again that our issue is something much deeper.  I can't disagree with that more.  What strict bans are you talking about exactly?  There are pretty much no strict bans on guns in the US and where there are it doesn't really matter as there are no fences around those places. Reducing gun violence in the US is largely a two-pronged affair: 1. Young people should raised to have discipline and honor and receive a useful education. Not a bad idea, try putting it into law... 2.  Law-abiding citizens should be free to own and carry a gun. Many people who commit crimes are law abiding gun carrying citizens until they use their weapon to commit a crime. Taking gun access away from law-abiding citizens leaves them like...erm...hoovering flies waiting for the windshield on the freeway. I don't carry a weapon and I don't feel vulnerable at all. Not raising our kids right leaves us all like that.

Good debate going on here by the way, if I had my wife's crossbow, I'd have to wound you severly.


Edited by Slartibartfast - June 02 2010 at 14:19

 

 

The T wrote: Also, JLocke, I heard the youtube video. I guess the attack on a guy by a mob in the midst of riots is not the answer, is it? (the rest pertains more to having guns inside homes, my question was about packing them outside). Riots don't happen that often in the US

I posted that video hastily before rushing out my front door to run errands. Perhaps I didn't choose the correct video.

That woman's family was shot and killed inside of a public place of business. She had left her gun in her car because the current laws forbade people from wearing guns in public places (your argument). Had she taken the gun with her anyway, she might have had a chance of evening the odds, and her family may still be alive today. 

That's what I was trying to show you, so guns in the home doesn't even factor in. Like I said, I must have given you the wrong video. 

You do realize that not just anybody can go in and obtain a gun license, right? Background checks and a good amount of paperwork is required. It's not like any nutjob off the street can strut right in to a gun shop and leave with his own miniature arsenal. At least, that's not the legal way it is supposed to be handled. You're acting as if it's insane for a stand-up member of society to want to protect herself. Guns and weapons licenses are given out with great care and responsibility. If someone sells a weapon to an unstable, unlicensed individual, then that's the seller's fault, not the right to bear arms. 

You guys on the opposite side of this issue always over-simplify this stuff to make it appear reckless to have my point of view on it. What you always fail to do, however, is explain how tougher laws are supposed to stop criminals from killing people. It can't happen. I don't see how limiting the innocent will halt the actions of the evil, and I never will see it.

Slartibartfast wrote: Epignosis wrote: So why do you or Brian think the murder rate in Switzerland is so low?  I'd think twice before going to shoot up a grocery store or bank if pretty much every young man between 20 and 30 is trained, well-disciplined, and armed.  Not really, if you are unhinged you don't really care. One mistake liberals frequently make in this debate (I've seen both you and T make it today) is to believe that most people's penchant for violence overwhelms their penchant for self-preservation.  This may be true in comics, but not in reality.  Sure a nut will not care, but how many criminals are nuts? My purpose is showing that a proliferation of guns is not the issue in the US.  Nay, imposing strict bans on guns in the US has led to more gun violence, not less.  I've argued time and again that our issue is something much deeper.  I can't disagree with that more.  What strict bans are you talking about exactly?  There are pretty much no strict bans on guns in the US and where there are it doesn't really matter as there are no fences around those places. These. Reducing gun violence in the US is largely a two-pronged affair: 1. Young people should raised to have discipline and honor and receive a useful education. Not a bad idea, try putting it into law... That's another mistake liberals make.  They expect the government to do everything.  This is a challenge to parents, not legislators. 2.  Law-abiding citizens should be free to own and carry a gun. Many people who commit crimes are law abiding gun carrying citizens until they use their weapon to commit a crime. Do you have a statistic for this?  I'd be willing to bet that most (or at least almost most) criminals who use a weapon to commit a crime already have a criminal record (and not the Rick Wakeman album! ). Taking gun access away from law-abiding citizens leaves them like...erm...hoovering flies waiting for the windshield on the freeway. I don't carry a weapon and I don't feel vulnerable at all. I didn't say it'd make you feel vulnerable.  I said it makes you vulnerable. Not raising our kids right leaves us all like that. Good debate going on here by the way, if I had my wife's crossbow, I'd have to wound you severly. I agree, except I've only got half the work done I'm supposed to get done today.

Slartibartfast wrote: I'm going to have to go green, Epignosis wrote: Slartibartfast wrote: Epignosis wrote: So why do you or Brian think the murder rate in Switzerland is so low?  I'd think twice before going to shoot up a grocery store or bank if pretty much every young man between 20 and 30 is trained, well-disciplined, and armed.  Not really, if you are unhinged you don't really care. One mistake liberals frequently make in this debate (I've seen both you and T make it today) is to believe that most people's penchant for violence overwhelms their penchant for self-preservation.  This may be true in comics, but not in reality.  Sure a nut will not care, but how many criminals are nuts? I don't do comics so I don't really know about this in relation to comics. I'm just not so sure that nut jobs really give a damn about self preservation.  I can't speak personally about the rate of criminals who are nuts. Purple now.  Damn, Slart, I can barely read your Slimer font!  Anyway, forget comics.  My point is that criminals usually want to live too- not be killed or injured themselves. My purpose is showing that a proliferation of guns is not the issue in the US.  Nay, imposing strict bans on guns in the US has led to more gun violence, not less.  I've argued time and again that our issue is something much deeper.  I can't disagree with that more.  What strict bans are you talking about exactly?  There are pretty much no strict bans on guns in the US and where there are it doesn't really matter as there are no fences around those places. These.  What the hell, are you trying to make me click on a link???? Yes.  Click the link.  It's so I can steal your identity and prove that I don't need guns to commit great crimes!  Reducing gun violence in the US is largely a two-pronged affair: 1. Young people should raised to have discipline and honor and receive a useful education. Not a bad idea, try putting it into law... That's another mistake liberals make.  They expect the government to do everything.  This is a challenge to parents, not legislators. I maintain we are the government here.  Let's just let the government do nothing, ANARCHY ANARCHY!!! The government shouldn't raise our children, regardless of what Mrs. Clinton said.  A "we are the government" is a glib phrase.  Were "we" the government from 2000 to 2008?  Not according to many of the bumper stickers I saw.  2.  Law-abiding citizens should be free to own and carry a gun. Many people who commit crimes are law abiding gun carrying citizens until they use their weapon to commit a crime. Do you have a statistic for this?  I'd be willing to bet that most (or at least almost most) criminals who use a weapon to commit a crime already have a criminal record (and not the Rick Wakeman album! ).  Hey, I like that record dammit!!!  But the logic of that argument is that at least or most criminals commit their first crime without a weapon.... And I think that is true.  I taught juvenile delinquents for two years.  I can't recall any of them having a firearm for his first criminal offense...there was one, but his crime kind of involved stealing firearms. Taking gun access away from law-abiding citizens leaves them like...erm...hoovering flies waiting for the windshield on the freeway. I don't carry a weapon and I don't feel vulnerable at all. I didn't say it'd make you feel vulnerable.  I said it makes you vulnerable. Actually, no it doesn't.  If it does, you must be in a dangerous place, a dangerous place.  Which happens to be where I'd be if I were in a public place where "law abiding citizens" were allowed to freely carry weapons in public establishments.  No offense, but you've done a sh*tty job using green.    So a criminal pulls a gun in your vicinity.  You have no gun.  You are more vulnerable.  That's pretty simple, I think. I lived in Georgia for a year and a half, and I only felt threatened because my air conditioner would shoot ice across the room.    But does not Georgia allow concealed weapons with a permit?  If that's true, then you do not know how many people with guns are milling about you on a daily basis. Not raising our kids right leaves us all like that. Good debate going on here by the way, if I had my wife's crossbow, I'd have to wound you severly. I agree, except I've only got half the work done I'm supposed to get done today.  Get cracking dude.  You're in my time zone so there is still time left in the day.  I actually want to play video games.

JLocke wrote: Zelda!!!

Incidentally...lol...

my kick is Mechwarrior.  Guns, guns, and more guns! 

Nope, play Earthbound.  You'll learn that bats and frying pans can defend yourself just fine, and that guns are actually the weakest weapons.  Also, only the smart kid gets to use the guns, not just any crazy psychopathic murderer.

Epignosis wrote: UndercoverBoy wrote: Nope, play Earthbound.  You'll learn that bats and frying pans can defend yourself just fine, and that guns are actually the weakest weapons.  Also, only the smart kid gets to use the guns, not just any crazy psychopathic murderer. What in the hell are you talking about boy?