Forum Home Forum Home > Progressive Music Lounges > Prog Music Lounge
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Symphonic or Progressive: What came first?
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Topic ClosedSymphonic or Progressive: What came first?
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1234 5>
Author
Message
  Topic Search Topic Search  Topic Options Topic Options
richardh View Drop Down
Prog Reviewer
Prog Reviewer
Avatar

Joined: February 18 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 28737 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 01 2010 at 00:57
I'm guessing that the term 'symphonic rock' was first coined to describe The Moody Blues 'Days Of Future Past'.Progressive rock was a convenient shovelling up of bands who couldn't easily be pigeon holed so would have come later.(but I am guessing as I didn't start listeing to prog rock until 1977 and at that time I was not aware of any sub categories.
Back to Top
moshkito View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: January 04 2007
Location: Grok City
Status: Offline
Points: 17839 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 01 2010 at 02:29
Hi,
 
I would say "symphonic", specially when one notices the connection to a lot of classically trained musicians, that gave up that life to do something else.
 
Progressive was not a term that was used until at least 20 years later ... and is used mainly for commercial reasons than anything else so you know the difference between one band and another. Sadly, there are too many people that take the terminology way too seriously and many bands lose sight of its own creativity when they become afraid of some of the comments. The best bands are pretty much immune to it, if they have any weight at all on their work.
 
However, the "symphonic" that most people look for today, does not mean the same thing when the earlier music that we refer as "progressive" first appeared. Synthsizers then were used as "sounds" and a new instrument. Today, synthesizers are nothing but orchestra replacements, and some are confusing the symphonic nature of a composition with a synth in its middle, instead of a synth just doing standard strings and keyboards! Symphonic today, is symphonic, and for me I'm not sure that the illusion pans out all the time ... some folks are merely playing with the new toys and technology, and that's not enough to define "music". It is, however, enough to define a band on the Internet!
Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com
Back to Top
Dean View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout

Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 01 2010 at 02:38
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Hi,
 
I would say "symphonic", specially when one notices the connection to a lot of classically trained musicians, that gave up that life to do something else.
Who exactly?
 
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

 
Progressive was not a term that was used until at least 20 years later ... and is used mainly for commercial reasons than anything else so you know the difference between one band and another. Sadly, there are too many people that take the terminology way too seriously and many bands lose sight of its own creativity when they become afraid of some of the comments. The best bands are pretty much immune to it, if they have any weight at all on their work.
In America yes - everywhere else - no.
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

 
However, the "symphonic" that most people look for today, does not mean the same thing when the earlier music that we refer as "progressive" first appeared. Synthsizers then were used as "sounds" and a new instrument. Today, synthesizers are nothing but orchestra replacements, and some are confusing the symphonic nature of a composition with a synth in its middle, instead of a synth just doing standard strings and keyboards! Symphonic today, is symphonic, and for me I'm not sure that the illusion pans out all the time ... some folks are merely playing with the new toys and technology, and that's not enough to define "music". It is, however, enough to define a band on the Internet!
Symphonic Prog is not rock music with synth-strings - not then, not now.
What?
Back to Top
JD View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: February 07 2009
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 18446 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 01 2010 at 06:27
Originally posted by Anguiad Anguiad wrote:

Also, in the Genesis green boxset, one of the reviewers refers their music as "college rock". Why, I dunno. Geek


This term was used because it was the independent student run college radio stations that would play this music, usually late at night while the students were "studying" Wink
Thank you for supporting independently produced music
Back to Top
Dean View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout

Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 01 2010 at 07:03
Originally posted by JD JD wrote:

Originally posted by Anguiad Anguiad wrote:

Also, in the Genesis green boxset, one of the reviewers refers their music as "college rock". Why, I dunno. Geek


This term was used because it was the independent student run college radio stations that would play this music, usually late at night while the students were "studying" Wink
It was also because many of the bands were formed from whilst the band members were at college. And because the tours were mainly on the "college-circuit" playing in student union bars - in the UK there was even a TV series of concerts called "Rock Goes To College" that highlighted gigs from that circuit.
What?
Back to Top
sleeper View Drop Down
Prog Reviewer
Prog Reviewer
Avatar

Joined: October 09 2005
Location: Entropia
Status: Offline
Points: 16449 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 01 2010 at 07:04
Originally posted by JD JD wrote:

Originally posted by Anguiad Anguiad wrote:

Also, in the Genesis green boxset, one of the reviewers refers their music as "college rock". Why, I dunno. Geek
This term was used because it was the independent student run college radio stations that would play this music, usually late at night while the students were "studying" Wink

Also, outside of London most of these bands would play most of their gigs at colleges and universities.

I'm not sure when the term symphonic rock was first coined but as I understand it Art Rock was the widely used term that was supperceded by progressive rock in the early to mid 70's.
Spending more than I should on Prog since 2005

Back to Top
TODDLER View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar
VIP Member

Joined: August 28 2009
Location: Vineland, N.J.
Status: Offline
Points: 3126 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 01 2010 at 08:42
Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

I can't quite pinpoint the moment in time where the music was being referred to as progressive rock,  It was just really good music that didn't get much airplay or respect. 
Mostly after hours radio .....on the east coast and the station WXPN out of Philadelphia was my only source. Late night programming which played the music of Rare Bird, Jade Warrior, Curved Air, Van Der Graaf Generator, Popol Vuh, Univers Zero etc, ...In today's world, if you wanted to lose your job you could attempt the above just to experiment the test of time. Just to see how long anyone would last as an underdog working for a corporation that stamps out art. Various DJ'S in the Phila area during the early 80's quit their jobs due to their personal dilemma to fight for the cause. One DJ I will quote saying....How can I continue working for a radio station that won't allow me to play the Strawbs?

The actual term Progressive Rock may have developed around the release of "Pictures At An Exhibition" but, possibly earlier in Europe. I have no idea when.... really, but, I do remember purchasing Pulsar albums in the late 70's from a vendor who termed the music as Symphonic rock. I didn't pay enough close attention to the terms until much later in life. 
Back to Top
Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator

Honorary Collaborator

Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19557 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 01 2010 at 10:34
There are two diffreret possibilities:
 
1.- Any Prog genre appeared before Symphonic
2.- Being Symphonic a Prog sub-genre, if Symphonic came first, then both Prog and Symphonic acme simultaneously.
 
I believe the first Prog album was by The Nice, so they came simultaneously INHO.
 
Iván
            
Back to Top
Dean View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout

Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 01 2010 at 13:02
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

 
I believe the first Prog album was by The Nice,
I believe you...
 
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

so they came simultaneously INHO.
 
Iván
... I'm not so sure I'd call The Thoughts of Emerlist Davjack a Symphonic Prog album though.
What?
Back to Top
richardh View Drop Down
Prog Reviewer
Prog Reviewer
Avatar

Joined: February 18 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 28737 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 01 2010 at 14:01
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

 
I believe the first Prog album was by The Nice,
I believe you...
 
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

so they came simultaneously INHO.
 
Iván
... I'm not so sure I'd call The Thoughts of Emerlist Davjack a Symphonic Prog album though.
I expect Ivan meant their second release Ars Longa Vita Brevis (1968) which featured orchestration. However  The Moody Blues' Days Of Future Passed' came earlier (1967).
Back to Top
fuxi View Drop Down
Prog Reviewer
Prog Reviewer
Avatar

Joined: March 08 2006
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 2459 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 01 2010 at 14:55
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by fuxi fuxi wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Genesis and Yes were late-comers to the party and didn't get "symphonic" until 72.
It seems your comments are highly subjective. Certainly "The Musical Box" and "The Fountain of Salmacis" are as "symphonic" as any rock I can think of! Length has got nothing to do with it; it's the style that counts. By the same token, The Soft Machine's "Moon in June" is unadulterated symphonic rock.

Of course, all music analysis is subjective Wink. Nursery Cryme is symphonic in parts, In The Court Of The Crimson King is symphonic in parts, even A Saucerful Of Secrets is symphonic in parts ... none of those albums are unadulterated symphonic in whole. Foxtrot (their 4th album) and Fragile (their 4th album) are wholly symphonic (in my subjective opinion).


But... mon cher Dean... FRAGILE is from 1971!
Back to Top
Dean View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout

Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 01 2010 at 14:59
Originally posted by fuxi fuxi wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by fuxi fuxi wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Genesis and Yes were late-comers to the party and didn't get "symphonic" until 72.
It seems your comments are highly subjective. Certainly "The Musical Box" and "The Fountain of Salmacis" are as "symphonic" as any rock I can think of! Length has got nothing to do with it; it's the style that counts. By the same token, The Soft Machine's "Moon in June" is unadulterated symphonic rock.

Of course, all music analysis is subjective Wink. Nursery Cryme is symphonic in parts, In The Court Of The Crimson King is symphonic in parts, even A Saucerful Of Secrets is symphonic in parts ... none of those albums are unadulterated symphonic in whole. Foxtrot (their 4th album) and Fragile (their 4th album) are wholly symphonic (in my subjective opinion).


But... mon cher Dean... FRAGILE is from 1971!
Yes it is - I spotted that too Wink, but it was late '71 (and '72 in the States) Tongue
What?
Back to Top
seventhsojourn View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: December 11 2009
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 4006 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 01 2010 at 15:00
Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

 
I believe the first Prog album was by The Nice,
I believe you...
 
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

so they came simultaneously INHO.
 
Iván
... I'm not so sure I'd call The Thoughts of Emerlist Davjack a Symphonic Prog album though.
I expect Ivan meant their second release Ars Longa Vita Brevis (1968) which featured orchestration. However  The Moody Blues' Days Of Future Passed' came earlier (1967).
 
Symphonic or Progressive: What came first?
 
The Thoughts of Emerlist Davjack (December, 1967) - first Prog album.
 
Days of Future Passed (November, 1967) - first Symphonic album.
 
Wink
Back to Top
fuxi View Drop Down
Prog Reviewer
Prog Reviewer
Avatar

Joined: March 08 2006
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 2459 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 01 2010 at 15:06
All in all, it seems the terms "progressive music" and "progressive rock" were in more general use in most (perhaps even all) western countries a few years before the term (and probably the actual genre) of "symphonic rock" appeared.

I guess it was all connected with the old hippy idea that more complex, ambitious, sophisticated, avant-garde music was better for the listener and could take society (or at least the counterculture) further and higher.

(As opposed to another hippy idea, espoused by the likes of Bob Dylan and Neal Young, that simple, straightforward tunesmithery was more honest and therefore preferable.)
Back to Top
Dean View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout

Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 01 2010 at 15:08
Originally posted by seventhsojourn seventhsojourn wrote:

Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

 
I believe the first Prog album was by The Nice,
I believe you...
 
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

so they came simultaneously INHO.
 
Iván
... I'm not so sure I'd call The Thoughts of Emerlist Davjack a Symphonic Prog album though.
I expect Ivan meant their second release Ars Longa Vita Brevis (1968) which featured orchestration. However  The Moody Blues' Days Of Future Passed' came earlier (1967).
 
Symphonic or Progressive: What came first?
 
The Thoughts of Emerlist Davjack (December, 1967) - first Prog album.
 
Days of Future Passed (November, 1967) - first Symphonic album.
 
Wink
Nice try, but DoFP is not a Symphonic album - at best it is Baroque Pop. Geek
 
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

The use of Symphony orchestras, orchestras or even wind sections in rock bands, I also seen people calling Days of Future Passed Symphonic Rock when as a fact it is Pop with orchestral intro and coda.
 
What?
Back to Top
seventhsojourn View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: December 11 2009
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 4006 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 01 2010 at 15:11
^ Tongue Only joking... but you knew that of course!
Back to Top
Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator

Honorary Collaborator

Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19557 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 01 2010 at 15:11
Originally posted by seventhsojourn seventhsojourn wrote:

Symphonic or Progressive: What came first?
 
The Thoughts of Emerlist Davjack (December, 1967) - first Prog album.
 
Days of Future Passed (November, 1967) - first Symphonic album.
 
Wink
As we have discussed long before:
 
Days of Future Passed is not a Symphonic album, it's really a mainstream album with 2 POP hits (Nights in White Satin and Tuesday Afternoon) to which The Moody Blues added artificial Orchestral intros and Codas, being that the main songs are simply mainstream (of the best quality).

This is so obvious, that The Moody Blues have released Tuesday Afternoon and Nights in White Satin countless times as HIT SINGLES, without changing a note from the original release, only deleting the orchestral intro and Coda.  LOLWink (I know, but just in case)

The Nice already had a lot of Symphonic elements in their first album that developed more in the next release (Ars Longa Vita Brevis), and they played music with Symphonic structure, not only adding Symphony Orchestra to play intros and codas.

Iván



Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - June 01 2010 at 15:12
            
Back to Top
Gerinski View Drop Down
Prog Reviewer
Prog Reviewer
Avatar

Joined: February 10 2010
Location: Barcelona Spain
Status: Offline
Points: 5154 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 01 2010 at 15:20
Originally posted by fuxi fuxi wrote:

All in all, it seems the terms "progressive music" and "progressive rock" were in more general use in most (perhaps even all) western countries a few years before the term (and probably the actual genre) of "symphonic rock" appeared. 
Well I can assure you that in Spain it was the opposite.
But right, in fact Spain was not yet a western country back then LOL 
Back to Top
seventhsojourn View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: December 11 2009
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 4006 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 01 2010 at 15:21
Yep, thanks Ivan. For me, The Moody Blues are progressive without being Prog. Thumbs Up
Back to Top
fuxi View Drop Down
Prog Reviewer
Prog Reviewer
Avatar

Joined: March 08 2006
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 2459 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 01 2010 at 15:30
Originally posted by Gerinski Gerinski wrote:

Originally posted by fuxi fuxi wrote:

All in all, it seems the terms "progressive music" and "progressive rock" were in more general use in most (perhaps even all) western countries a few years before the term (and probably the actual genre) of "symphonic rock" appeared. 


Well I can assure you that in Spain it was the opposite.
But right, in fact Spain was not yet a western country back then LOL 


It certainly wasn't very "progressive", if you'll allow me to say so!
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1234 5>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down



This page was generated in 0.168 seconds.
Donate monthly and keep PA fast-loading and ad-free forever.