Forum Home Forum Home > Progressive Music Lounges > Prog Bands, Artists and Genres Appreciation
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - re: ELP, Haven't aged well?
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Topic Closedre: ELP, Haven't aged well?

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1234>
Author
Message
The Quiet One View Drop Down
Prog Reviewer
Prog Reviewer
Avatar

Joined: January 16 2008
Location: Argentina
Status: Offline
Points: 15745
Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 25 2010 at 13:11
Originally posted by TheGazzardian TheGazzardian wrote:

Originally posted by The Quiet One The Quiet One wrote:

That's my point. If someone considers ELP's bombastic sound dated, then why not consider Genesis and Yes dated for their own kind-of style?

As somebody who is a big fan of Yes and Genesis but didn't get ELP, even after listening to BSS & Tarkus, I wouldn't say that their sound is entirely dated.

But the sound effects on Toccata? Definitely dated. Big smile
 
The synths on Tormato? Definitely dated as well. Wink
Back to Top
Slartibartfast View Drop Down
Collaborator
Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam

Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
Status: Offline
Points: 29630
Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 25 2010 at 13:48
Originally posted by TheGazzardian TheGazzardian wrote:

But the sound effects on Toccata? Definitely dated. Big smile

Blasphemer!!!  Tocatta was the ELP song that helped get me into prog before I was really into prog. LOL
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...

Back to Top
Garion81 View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator

Honorary Collaborator

Joined: May 22 2004
Location: So Cal, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 4338
Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 25 2010 at 14:20


ELP has never been received well generally on this site. Genesis and Yes have far more positive support here.  When people parrot the “bombastic” label your only quoting rock critics in the 70's that hated prog to begin with.  When you are talking about ELP popularity you have to remember they were not just among the most popular bands in the progressive style they were one of the most popular rock bands in the world.  From 1971 to 1974 (and even in 1977) they were selling out the biggest arenas in the cities they played sometimes playing multiple dates in those arenas.  For example (and comparison) in Los Angeles in 1977 they sold out three nights at the Long Beach area (about 15,000 people). Genesis the same year could not sell out the Forum (17,000) for one night. Yes played one night at Long Beach. Only Pink Floyd on the Animals tour did as well selling out Dodger Stadium. ELP co headlined with Deep Purple in 1974 one of the highest attend shows with 500,000 people at the old Ontario Spreedway for Cal Jam 1.  Being that big meant a lot of critics didn't like them .  Being that big allowed them to have incredible ostentatious shows (but nothing like the set Pink Floyd did with The Wall and Animals).  So they were far more accepted by the general rock fan much more than Genesis, VDGG, GG and even Yes. In terms of today they Keith and Greg were selling out their shows in the 1500-2500 seat places they played on their recent tour.  Pretty good by today’s prog band standard.  They are also headlining as ELP the High Voltage Festival in July, People are still wanting to see these guys.  Rumors of their death are highly exaggerated.

 

After the Works tour in 1977-78 ELP never did get that high again 

To me ELP lost its fans the minute that digital Yamaha showed up.  Keith abandoned the organ for this and changed their overall sound drastically.  But for the subject abandoning prog let me ask another question how many 20 minute epics appeared in 1978?   Genesis and Yes were already shortening their works by this time. The problem was ELP could not adapt to the pop world as well as some of the other groups did hence making subsequent releases sporadic and kind of all of the place in terms of style.  As for solo careers none of them really pursued them vigorously. Carl had his stint in Asia but Keith was content to release albums that were import only in the US and soundtracks. Keith and Carl  did that album with Robert Berry 3 to the power of 3 Greg treid the hardest and was met lukewarm at best.

.

 

 Love Beach being the most criticized of all their albums actually contained some very interesting piano work on Officer and a Gentleman which took up the entire second side.  Most fans didn't relate because it didn’t follow Tarkus or Karn Evil as much as it did the song Trilogy.  I hear elements of what made Take A Pebble and Trilogy so good. Someone mentioned UK and ELP has a section in MoOaG that is very similar in style about 12 minutes in. To me it has some very good work in it and I put in high esteem with their other epics.  The biggest difference is has a lot less “bombast” than any of the others.  The biggest criticism of ELP is not the music on that album it is the cover art and the name of the album.  Listening to the album I find there are 3 very unlistenable songs that should have been on one of Greg's solo albums.  The lead song is so so but the lyrics ruin it for me but some good keyboard and drum work behind them.  For you is a pretty good song. Carnio is a very good classical adaptation and the second side is very good. I would choose this one over Works II and In the Hot Seat which were just awful record company fulfillments.  I think Love Beach is over criticized and for all the wrong reasons.  I would give this one 3.5 stars.

 

I think their music influences a lot of modern prog artists.  Not so much as Genesis for sure and somewhat Yes but I hear their music in Neal Morse’s music, Jordan Rudess, Izz, Mars Hollow, Echolyn, Spocks Beard and others. Not so much basing their sound on them but in composition and keyboard sounds.   

 

To me they are still an essential influence and of the top bands of the genre for their early works.  


BTW some of us still prefer the analog synths to the digital samples of today. Wink



Edited by Garion81 - May 25 2010 at 15:07


"What are you going to do when that damn thing rusts?"
Back to Top
Triceratopsoil View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: April 03 2010
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 18016
Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 25 2010 at 15:33
Originally posted by Garion81 Garion81 wrote:



BTW some of us still prefer the analog synths to the digital samples of today. Wink



ClapThumbs UpBig smileRawks
Thumbs Up
Back to Top
richardh View Drop Down
Prog Reviewer
Prog Reviewer
Avatar

Joined: February 18 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 28070
Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 25 2010 at 15:54
Great post Garion. Thoroughly enjoyed reading that. I also have a sneaking suspicion that Love Beach is really not that bad. Take out the risible A Taste Of My Love, make Canario a bit longer and the album would be a 3 star for me. The cover is hard to justify thoughEmbarrassed
Back to Top
Slartibartfast View Drop Down
Collaborator
Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam

Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
Status: Offline
Points: 29630
Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 25 2010 at 16:56
Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

Great post Garion. Thoroughly enjoyed reading that. I also have a sneaking suspicion that Love Beach is really not that bad. Take out the risible A Taste Of My Love, make Canario a bit longer and the album would be a 3 star for me. The cover is hard to justify thoughEmbarrassed

I suppose Love Beach isn't that bad, but are there any fans here of the cover? LOL
I've only got Officer And A Gentleman in a box set (i did hear the original album in it's entirety many many years ago) but compare that one to their last epic Pirates...


Edited by Slartibartfast - May 25 2010 at 16:58
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...

Back to Top
Garion81 View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator

Honorary Collaborator

Joined: May 22 2004
Location: So Cal, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 4338
Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 25 2010 at 18:06
Well you can always download it from IT Tunes or Amazon or wherever and you will never have to look at the cover.  LOL  Like I said the first 4 songs are pretty hard to swallow so I never play them.  But For You is pretty good and then Canario and the second side make up for it. So 29 of the 42 minutes are listenable.  Not sure has this ever been remastered?  If not it probably could use it.   No it is not on par with the earlier works and even some of the stuff on Works 1 had more passion but it certainly does not deserve the outright crap label people put on it.   Greg's voice is in great form on this too. I think sometimes people pick up the same old arguments and paste them in every ELP thread.  The other one I hate is how bad the second side of Tarkus is.  No, it really isn't that bad.  The problem to me as after listening to the suite it is hard to listen to any thing afterwards. Wink

Thanks for the kind words Richard.  ELP will always have a kind place in my thoughts.  Being a 17 year old senior in High School seeing them play the BSS tour they literally changed how I had thought and felt about music. I went home and practiced the piano harder than I ever had. Didn't do any good but they certainly inspired me. LOL Just seeing the Emerson Lake tour a few weeks ago just solidified how good they are and how much I have missed them and their music live. 

Brian you really think Pirates with Officer?  Hmmm I hadn't thought of that. That stupid Yamaha sound maybeand the concept but the piano parts remind me of Trilogy and even Take a Pebble in parts and for sure UK  in the beginning of Letter From the Front. section of Officer. 

   


"What are you going to do when that damn thing rusts?"
Back to Top
Drifter View Drop Down
Forum Groupie
Forum Groupie


Joined: May 23 2010
Location: Pa. USA
Status: Offline
Points: 40
Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 25 2010 at 18:15
Has anyone listened to Love Beach lately?
Back to Top
The Quiet One View Drop Down
Prog Reviewer
Prog Reviewer
Avatar

Joined: January 16 2008
Location: Argentina
Status: Offline
Points: 15745
Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 25 2010 at 18:23
It's weird, before I signed to PA I didn't know that stuff like Owner of a Lonely Heart, Turn it On Again and Love Beach were so hated.
 
I grew up with ELP's Fanfare for the Common Man: Best Of, and I loved the tune, Love Beach, still like it. The album though, isn't really great.


Edited by The Quiet One - May 25 2010 at 18:23
Back to Top
Brendan View Drop Down
Forum Newbie
Forum Newbie


Joined: May 20 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 21
Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 25 2010 at 18:29
I actually think it's something to do with some 'eccentric' things they did that might have been palatable in the 70's, but definitely don't wash today. 
Modern listeners don't really want to hear 'joke' songs, classical adaptations, Lake's love-ballads and rag-time piano songs. It might have gone down 'ok' in the 70's, classical adaptations were definitely seen as a good think then but modern audiences won't really dig that old line.

Also, the jokey nature of their music, it's clear to me that although they were one of the most popular prog acts of the 70's, modern audiences prefer the more serious, focused works of bands like Gentle Giant, Camel, Van Der Graaf Generator, who were not as highly regarded at the time, but have 'aged better' I guess.
Back to Top
Drifter View Drop Down
Forum Groupie
Forum Groupie


Joined: May 23 2010
Location: Pa. USA
Status: Offline
Points: 40
Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 25 2010 at 18:41
Originally posted by The Quiet One The Quiet One wrote:

It's weird, before I signed to PA I didn't know that stuff like Owner of a Lonely Heart, Turn it On Again and Love Beach were so hated.


The songs you mentioned were sort of an answer to new wave and punk. Each group tried to adapt to the changing musical climate that was happening at the time. Of course, Genesis was the most successful, commercially, with Duke and Ababcab and I quite enjoyed Yes's cross-over attempts, especially Drama. ELP, however, was kind of left behind and even their most die-hard  fans were embarrassed by Love Beach.
Back to Top
Slartibartfast View Drop Down
Collaborator
Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam

Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
Status: Offline
Points: 29630
Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 25 2010 at 18:41
Originally posted by Garion81 Garion81 wrote:

Brian you really think Pirates with Officer? 

Yeah, I double checked and The Return Of The Maticore box set has Pirates following Officer. LOL
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...

Back to Top
jammun View Drop Down
Prog Reviewer
Prog Reviewer
Avatar

Joined: July 14 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 3449
Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 25 2010 at 20:00
Ah here we go on ELP again.  As others have mentioned, their light burned very brightly for a while, actually for a pretty good while in terms of rock band longevity. 
 
Somehow, they managed to lose their extended rock audience.  It's not just a prog thing.  Just ask AC/DC.
 
After BSS they more or less lost me.  Works, while decent, was probably a misstep.  I mean, I didn't want to hear a side each of E and L and P, I wanted to hear ELP.
 
And the live shows became a bit too extravagant.  Spinning pianos?  What is it with keyboard players?  I don't know much about Liberace, but once the candelabras showed up, well he was done, if he had ever not been done in the first place.  Even Elton John, with the masterful 11-17-70, was once a first-rate, knock-out rock pianist.  But then all the fluff started showing up.  It's too bad, really.  People (me included) remember the spinning piano and how over the top it was.  We (me included) forget just how great the band was on the Tarkus-era tour.  No frills, no bells-and-whistles (well maybe a gong or two), just three guys playing the most amazing music I'd ever heard.   
 
Unfortunately, it's the latter stuff that critics (and one-time fans) remember.  They don't, or choose not to, remember the incredible music on the first five albums (counting Pictures).  Somehow that doesn't happen quite so much with the other prog giants of the day.  Yes is forgiven for the early albums, and most of the later.  Pink Floyd always gets a pass.
 
ELP hit the ground running, and they weren't running any marathon pace, they were in a full-out sprint, and when they found it was a marathon well, they were plain winded.


Edited by jammun - May 25 2010 at 20:00
Can you tell me where we're headin'?
Lincoln County Road or Armageddon.
Back to Top
Garion81 View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator

Honorary Collaborator

Joined: May 22 2004
Location: So Cal, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 4338
Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 25 2010 at 23:57
^ Was ELP really more extravagant than anyone else?  I remember Jethro Tull having a costumed zebra come out on stage and sh*t black and white tennis balls that Ian Anderson picked up and juggled.  How is a spinning piano (which was only used a few times) any weirder than that?  Or the giant Pig balloon the size of a Macy's parade balloon that Pink Floyd had in between two smoke stacks that were on each side of the stage.  

Back to ELP they used cannons at the Isle of Wright.  Keith had his theremin that shot out fireworks and then the computer lights overlay on the back of the moog and organ at the end of Karn Evil 9 the revolving drum riser.  Keith throwing his Hammond around and sticking knives in the keys but he had been doing that since The Nice. The video screens on the 1977 tour was the only thing added to that. What else?  That was it.  They didn't even use lasers that I remember. 



"What are you going to do when that damn thing rusts?"
Back to Top
richardh View Drop Down
Prog Reviewer
Prog Reviewer
Avatar

Joined: February 18 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 28070
Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 26 2010 at 01:12
Originally posted by Garion81 Garion81 wrote:

Well you can always download it from IT Tunes or Amazon or wherever and you will never have to look at the cover.  LOL  Like I said the first 4 songs are pretty hard to swallow so I never play them.  But For You is pretty good and then Canario and the second side make up for it. So 29 of the 42 minutes are listenable.  Not sure has this ever been remastered?  If not it probably could use it.   No it is not on par with the earlier works and even some of the stuff on Works 1 had more passion but it certainly does not deserve the outright crap label people put on it.   Greg's voice is in great form on this too. I think sometimes people pick up the same old arguments and paste them in every ELP thread.  The other one I hate is how bad the second side of Tarkus is.  No, it really isn't that bad.  The problem to me as after listening to the suite it is hard to listen to any thing afterwards. Wink

Thanks for the kind words Richard.  ELP will always have a kind place in my thoughts.  Being a 17 year old senior in High School seeing them play the BSS tour they literally changed how I had thought and felt about music. I went home and practiced the piano harder than I ever had. Didn't do any good but they certainly inspired me. LOL Just seeing the Emerson Lake tour a few weeks ago just solidified how good they are and how much I have missed them and their music live. 

Brian you really think Pirates with Officer?  Hmmm I hadn't thought of that. That stupid Yamaha sound maybeand the concept but the piano parts remind me of Trilogy and even Take a Pebble in parts and for sure UK  in the beginning of Letter From the Front. section of Officer. 

   
Love Beach was remastered (Sanctuary) with bonus tracks and includes a few more photos from the cover photoshootEmbarrassed
 
The bonus tracks are rehearsal versions of Canario,Taste Of My Love and Letters From The Front. The sound is a bit raw as to be expected and perhaps gives an idea of what the tracks might have sounded live (ELP never played a single track off the album live).
 
 
Back to Top
raindance View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: May 24 2005
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 443
Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 26 2010 at 07:34
Excellent post Garion! ELP are still referred to as rocks first supergroup and as you rightly say, were one of the biggest bands in the world. Their music was very complex and challenging, so it was very difficult for neo-bands to replicate their sound, whilst Genesis was more straight forward! I remember Genesis having to cancell many shows on their 74 tour whilst ELP were selling out stadiums, Genesis didn't achieve that until they becale a 'pop' band.
Back to Top
boo boo View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member


Joined: June 28 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 905
Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 26 2010 at 11:33
Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

Originally posted by TheGazzardian TheGazzardian wrote:

But the sound effects on Toccata? Definitely dated. Big smile

Blasphemer!!!  Tocatta was the ELP song that helped get me into prog before I was really into prog. LOL
 
I love the synth drum effects on Toccata, it's like an Atari 2600 gone insane.


Edited by boo boo - May 26 2010 at 11:52
Back to Top
Slartibartfast View Drop Down
Collaborator
Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam

Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
Status: Offline
Points: 29630
Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 26 2010 at 11:50
Toccata sucked me in because I was big monster movie fan at the time and it's a deliciously spooky track.
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...

Back to Top
UndercoverBoy View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: November 10 2009
Location: Tulsa, OK, U.S.
Status: Offline
Points: 5148
Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 26 2010 at 12:01
Originally posted by boo boo boo boo wrote:

Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

Originally posted by TheGazzardian TheGazzardian wrote:

But the sound effects on Toccata? Definitely dated. Big smile

Blasphemer!!!  Tocatta was the ELP song that helped get me into prog before I was really into prog. LOL
 
I love the synth drum effects on Toccata, it's like an Atari 2600 gone insane.
My brother describes it as "a madman on a pinball machine."
Back to Top
boo boo View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member


Joined: June 28 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 905
Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 26 2010 at 12:04
Toccata always makes me think of a gory battle on a dark and stormy night. Except that part makes me think of an arcade where every machine is possessed. I love it. 
 
Ginastera was VERY impressed with ELP's adaptation of his piece, and said it captured the mood of his piece better than anyone else's version.
 
ELP really were the best at adapting classical works and putting them into a rock context much in the same way Zep were the best at adapting blues works and putting them into a hard rock context.
 
I don't really agree with people that ELP were w**kers, it's not any more w**king than what you hear in classical music. That never made sense to me, in classical music something is considered a masterpiece and when brought into a rock context it's considered structureless w**king. I really hate that word anyway.
 
Unfortunately a lot of critics and kids think anything that isn't 4/4 and verse/chorus/verse is self indulgent noise and instrumental music is inherently boring. What can ya do?


Edited by boo boo - May 26 2010 at 12:10
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1234>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down



This page was generated in 0.222 seconds.
Donate monthly and keep PA fast-loading and ad-free forever.