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Brendan 
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 Topic: re: ELP, Haven't aged well?
Posted: May 24 2010 at 22:40 |
Hi I've read a lot of 'prog' dscussions and forums and ELP is often considered as one of one of the main prog bands of the 70's. In fact they were one of the leading prog acts of the seventies, weren't they?
Yet today I find there to be a lot less support for ELP than their main contemporaries. A brief look at your PA top hundred and you notice bands like Gentle Giant, Rush and Van Der Graaf Generator, Italian bands like Banco and PFM, and EVEN Supertramps 'Crime of the century' seem to be rated well above ELP. All of those afforementioned bands got into your 'top 50' but ELP didn't. Even Kansas' 'Leftoverture' is rated above 'Brain Salad Surgery', something which I totally did not expect to see on a prog site.
Also, I don't really hear a lot of ELP influence in the modern prog I have listened to so far. Granted there's a lot out there I haven't heard, but from the bands I've listened to, I can sense that these bands want to sing like Peter Gabriel, they want to have Steve Hackett's guitar tone, but I can't really sense any desire to sound like ELP. There's no-one like trying to model their singing on Greg Lake the way FIsh tries to with P Gab...
Now this is not a personal issue, I quite like the band, I probably like them more than a lot of 70's prog bands, but I've noticed they're not really getting the same credibility all these years later, as say Yes would.
It doesn't help that they only really have four classic albums. Anything after 'Brain Salad ...' is kind of seen as past their prime and that was only their fourth studio album!
Any thoughts on this?
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Triceratopsoil
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Posted: May 24 2010 at 22:42 |
 Brendan wrote:
Hi main prog bands |
I'm having a little trouble with this concept
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: May 24 2010 at 23:04 |
I don't know if one of the main, but surely one of the most representative and popular in the 70's.
Now, I believe the problem with ELP is that they reached their peak and everything was downhill after that, after BSS there's not a single great album.
Genesis despite the loss of Gabriel, still released at least two albums after The Lamb, Yes released a couiple good albums after Relater, but ELP who didn't lost a single member, released the average Works I and then, nothing even relevant.
Iván
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Logan
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Posted: May 24 2010 at 23:25 |
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I'd call it one of the main, or core, bands of the Prog movement. I don't think the music has aged gracefully, not that ELP ever was that graceful (okay, they came out with some lovely music). The band was very fashionable, but their bombastic, flashy, rather excessive approach largely went out of style (ELP is something of a Prog embarrassment to some as it represents a lot off what what people made fun of Prog for). I rather think that some of their spirit lives on in bands such as Dream Theater.
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The Quiet One
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Posted: May 24 2010 at 23:30 |
^I agree, but you've got to know that many ELP fans are rather DT "haters", and vice-versa.
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Logan
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Posted: May 24 2010 at 23:37 |
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^ That's true.
Incidentally, I find ELP pop music such as "From the Beginning" quite timeless, and "Endless Enigma" will always have a special place in my heart.
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The Quiet One
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Posted: May 24 2010 at 23:58 |
Logan wrote:
^ That's true.
Incidentally, I find ELP pop music such as "From the Beginning" quite timeless, and "Endless Enigma" will always have a special place in my heart. |
I love 'From the Beginning', and also very much like the inferior 'Still You Turn Me On'. Not a fan of 'Lucky Man' though.
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richardh
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Posted: May 25 2010 at 01:10 |
Must be about the fourth thread at least on this very subject in the last few months!
Ivan is correct about ELP going badly downhill after Brain Salad Surgery leaving us with a somewhat truncated legacy of decent albums. But given they were a 3 peice this is not bad (Rush are the exception that proves the rule) Also Ivan says they didn't lose a single member which is correct if you ignore ELPowell. ELP could have done with a change in personel to bring some fresh inspiration. Emerson was the main composer with Lake just providing the odd 3 minute song and Palmer absolutely nothing. This was a major problem.
It would have been interesting if ELP had a direct 'competitor'. The nearest was the second incarnation of UK (Wetton,Jobson and Bozzio) that expressed their intent to replace ELP.Danger Money is a great album btw.
There was also Triumvirat but I'm not going there!
Nowadays most of the ELP imitators come from Japan (Ars Nova and Gerard the most high profile). ELP's very technical style never sat well with the neo prog movement which was more about songs and less about showbiz.
I agree with the comment about Dream Theater carrying the spirit of ELP. But I would also add the criminally underated English band Muse who do a lot of flashy bombastic stuff as well. I adore them and so do many others.
All in all the important thing is that you get enjoyment from what you listen to regardless of whether they get recognition. Personally I like to enjoy my music in peice and don't need to read or listen to critcs making inane comments about music that I love.Flying under the radar is not always a bad thing!
Edited by richardh - May 25 2010 at 01:12
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: May 25 2010 at 01:23 |
richardh wrote:
Must be about the fourth thread at least on this very subject in the last few months!
Ivan is correct about ELP going badly downhill after Brain Salad Surgery leaving us with a somewhat truncated legacy of decent albums.
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That's the problem in my opinion.
Yes released Relayer but after three years they released the decent Going for the one, went down again with Tormato but very soon and despite the loss of Jon Anderson who is a symbol of the band, they released the outstanding Drama, for that moment it was 1981 and nobody cared for old Symphonic formula.
Genesis launched the weird The Lamb, Peter left,. but still they managed to release ATOTT and W&W which were both excellent. When Hackett left, still they released the Pop - Proggy ATTW# and Duke, but that point it was obvious that the band was going towards Pop, so people forgot tthem and lived of the 7 excellent albums.
ELP was in their peak in 1973, old Symphoonic was still growing, and they vanished (except for the Live triple album) until 1978 when they came back with the average Works.
People expected something even bigger than BSS for 1974, but while Yes and Genesis released their most adventurous Relayer and The Lamb, ELP just disappeared, leaving people expecting for more, when they came back in 78, the first golden era was dying and the album wasn't that good.
So while the debacle of the other big bands was progressive and people got used to the idea, ELP vanished the day after they released their best album.
Iván
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Bonnek
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Posted: May 25 2010 at 01:44 |
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ELP are one of the most excessive examples of Prog.
Prog fans may still like them despite (or even because) of that, but for the rest of humanity they are nothing but that plump dinosaur from ancient times.
The emphasis on keys and synths sure hasn't helped, their ageing badly is not just because of what they play, but largely due to the arrangements and the sound.
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Jim Garten
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Posted: May 25 2010 at 02:10 |
The Quiet One wrote:
^I agree, but you've got to know that many ELP fans are rather DT "haters", and vice-versa. |
Whilst I'd hesitate to use the word 'haters' there is some germ of truth here; bottom line is ELP/DT cannot be compared in any way shape or form - two totally different kinds of music, so most likely, two totally different fan bases with their own opinions on the other. Personally, I like both bands, so buck the trend a tad (incidentally, to those who believe DT get more than their fair share of 'haters', you should have been around this forum in the early days of 2004/2005 when ELP were serious whipping boys  )
I think the proiblem with ELP is whereas others of the prog greats continued releasing fairly good (if not great) material, ELP had a halcyon period of anout 4 years when they released stunning albums & performed great shows, then hit the skids & did nothing more of any real purpose, focus or (to my mind) worth. The same could be said of the individual members... look at the solo careers of (eg) Hackett, Gabriel and (yes...) Collins; different paths, different audiences, but huge success - what of E, L & P's solo careers....??? 
ELP had a great time for 4/5 years & produced some great music; it's just a shame their reputation has fallen since the late 1970s; bar a couple of lukewarm reunions, they just faded into the mists of nostalgia - only time will tell if this year's reunion will fare better.
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Jon Lord 1941 - 2012
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toroddfuglesteg
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Posted: May 25 2010 at 02:56 |
The problem may be the media too. All of them world wide deride/make fun out of ELP and think they are the most unfashionable thing to come from this planet since the black death plague (in the year 1348). Being bombarded by the media every 24/7, I think most of us, if not all of us, does not want to be regarded as nerds, village idiots and unfashionable. That's only an instinctive human nature reaction. In other words; we are cowards. I do rated Brain Salad Surgery among the five best ever albums of all time. I would put the first three albums among the twenty best ever albums too. Welcome My Friends in my top five of the best live albums. I also rate Pictures and Live at Wright very highly. That means I am the local village idiot, then. Media pressure is the answer to your question.
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Brendan
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Posted: May 25 2010 at 03:52 |
Captain Clutch wrote:
Brendan wrote:
Hi main prog bands |
I'm having a little trouble with this concept
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Like 'most known' and 'best'. To my mind the 'main' four bands of prog in the 70's are Genesis, Yes, ELP and King Crimson, though I have to admit Pink Floyd might also be a contender.
An obscure, lesser known band wouldn't be a 'main' band
I'm not sure if they have the same standing in the progressive rock community today as say 'Yes'
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Bonnek
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Posted: May 25 2010 at 04:24 |
toroddfuglesteg wrote:
The problem may be the media too. All of them world wide deride/make fun out of ELP and think they are the most unfashionable thing to come from this planet since the black death plague (in the year 1348). Being bombarded by the media every 24/7, I think most of us, if not all of us, does not want to be regarded as nerds, village idiots and unfashionable. That's only an instinctive human nature reaction. In other words; we are cowards. I do rated Brain Salad Surgery among the five best ever albums of all time. I would put the first three albums among the twenty best ever albums too. Welcome My Friends in my top five of the best live albums. I also rate Pictures and Live at Wright very highly. That means I am the local village idiot, then. Media pressure is the answer to your question.
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I dare to disagree with this. We are discussing the 'ageing process' here. ELP doesn't sound aged because "the media" says they do. Whatever "the media" says about ELP, they also say about Yes and Genesis. But Yes and Genesis don't sound aged at all.
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harmonium.ro
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Posted: May 25 2010 at 04:32 |
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The problem is in the music. Not that it's bad (I love it), but fast interplay and fat keys sounds have lost their place in the public taste since the late 70s to "normal" guitar rock. When there was a slight return of the keyboard sound in the mainstream, with the 80s new-wave, they had a completely different sound, and that didn't stay long in the public taste either.
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toroddfuglesteg
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Posted: May 25 2010 at 04:49 |
Oops.......... I have totally misunderstood the whole question here. Next time, I will read the question properly.
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Brendan
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Posted: May 25 2010 at 05:14 |
A Quote from Bruce Eder (allmusic) "Emerson, Lake & Palmer were progressive rock's first supergroup. Greeted by the rock press and the public as something akin to conquering heroes, they succeeded in broadening the audience for progressive rock from hundreds of thousands into tens of millions of listeners, creating a major radio phenomenon as well."
But look at that top 100 PA list, bands like Rush, Camel and Gentle Giant seem to have a lot more respect years later.
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Slartibartfast
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Posted: May 25 2010 at 06:40 |
I like ELP but it is true that their older stuff aged the best.  And it does seem fairly typical that once a prog band jumps off the prog wagon they can never quite get back on.
Edited by Slartibartfast - May 25 2010 at 06:43
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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raindance
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Posted: May 25 2010 at 07:11 |
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ELP were too adventorous for the mainstream and so didn't get it. Emerson was a pioneer in keyboard sounds/technology that are still being replicated today. You mention Genesis! well they weren't great musicians so were limited in their creativity and so made more accessible music that hasn't aged very well at all!
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presdoug
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Posted: May 25 2010 at 07:32 |
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it does not matter a bit to me if ELP has "aged well" or not, or what the critics thought and said, either then or now-the fact remains that some of their music, for me, is timeless (especially the first album), and, at the risk of sounding egocentric, if it works for me, then that is all that matters!
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re: ELP, Haven't aged well?
