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rod65 
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 28 2010
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Points: 248
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 Posted: May 20 2010 at 19:47 |
 Sckxyss wrote:
Paravion wrote:
There's not necessarily anything wrong with the word 'intellectual'. As the guy writing in red says, in this particular context - where it (as I see it) is used to refer to the range of people who assumes a possible correlation between prog and intellect - there is something wrong with it.
kingfriso wrote:
I myself am an intellectual, which means I study and have an interest in head-breaking matters as world politics, art, ethics, philosophy, physics and human behaviors. The majority of people in Holland (I don't know what's the situation in other countries) don't care about more then one of these intellectual matters I've mentioned (I guess 40% don't care about a single one). |
To make guesses like that disqualifies you as an intellectual. You really can't say unless you examine it properly (ie. not solely based on own or peer experiences). A survey determined to find out what percentage of Hollands population engage themselves in this sort of higher thinking would be pseudoscientific and plain stupid. Luckily, not everyone thinks about things in abstract and complex terms. We need intellectuals - but we certainly also need those who are not 'tormented' by head-breaking matters.
Also, real intellectuals would never present themselves as intellectuals. They are called so by others and it would be way too self-indulgent. |
Intelligence has nothing to do with pride or "self-indulgence"... he is simply being self-aware. I'm sure every truly smart person knows that they're smart. You're saying that as soon as they tell someone, they're no longer a real intellectual? You and many others here seem to be afraid of your own intelligence at
the risk of being a "snob".
Also, while Friso's first observation doesn't prove his intelligence, it also doen't disqualify him as you claim  .
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Agreed. There is a pervasive humility ethic that suggests that anyone who publicly recognizes his or her own virtues is guilty of pride. The impulse behind this ethic is religious, even if the people who espouse it are not, and it seems to impose, fairly often, a layer of socially useful dishonesty. Look to the ancient classical world, and that ethic is absent. In Aristotle's opinion, a person who has an insufficient appreciation of his own virtues suffers from the vie of microphsychia (small-souledness). No shame in stating one's virtues honestly. I respect that more than the false humility that is often the alternative.
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
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Points: 9869
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Posted: May 20 2010 at 19:54 |
I agree with T that prog is not necessarily the most complex or most thought provoking music out there. And...how about Steely Dan's short, ripping jazz fusion/funk workouts in pop format? It would take some serious persuasion for me to believe that is less complex and involved than what Marillion or IQ I have heard, or even some symph prog for that matter. The point is, it's possible to write extremely catchy music that is both loaded with complexity and gives you to think...prog artists by and large couldn't do it!  I do know that Steely Dan are on PA by the way, but outside prog circles I haven't heard them get called prog rock so...
Edited by rogerthat - May 20 2010 at 19:54
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presdoug
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 24 2010
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 8711
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Posted: May 20 2010 at 21:26 |
The T wrote:
presdoug wrote:
found out (for those that are interested) that Schoepenhauer also said that "music is the greatest of the arts, because it is best at conveying human feeling"-don't know if human feeling for him is part of the will, or representation-man, it has been a long time since i have read any Schoepenhauer
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Music, pure abstract music (instrumental music, he probably was talking about classical music) IS the best bridge to the actual human feeling, it's a window to the true inner self of the artist, where he doesn't rely on words, where he can't communicate anything directly and has to employ sound, which go straight pass the language-processing areas of the brain into regions more related to memory and emotion... Music is the greatest of the arts. As much as I love prog, I don't think prog is the greatest of the arts though. But it's a great one and even sublime one in the right hands. |
what you have said is interesting and thought-provoking
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Progosopher
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 12 2009
Location: Coolwood
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Points: 6472
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Posted: May 20 2010 at 21:39 |
[
There's a difference between disliking philosophy and being philosophical. The study of Philosophy for philosophy's sake is not being philosophical and there is a difference between having a (personal) philosophy and having to read (and pretend to understand) the interminable drivel of "professional" philosophers in the vain hope that it will explain something that cannot be explained by just thinking about it. Name dropping Nietzsche, Kant or Wittgenstein just means I know how to use Wikipedia, and Rob's joke about Popeye being an existentialist flies over my head and lies in a crumpled heap on the floor behind me. Do you have to be a sophist to be sophisticated, do you have to be philosophical to love wisdom?
btw: I'm not anti-intellectual, just anti-philosopher.  [/QUOTE]
If I may: I love philosophy. It's my life. And no, I am not offended by the anti-philosophical attitude. I know exactly where that is coming from. At the same time, I enjoy reading Kant and Nietzsche, and others. But that's me and it is not for everyone. Don't waste your time on something that is neither meaningful or enjoyable. Do I understand it all? No. I think the best way to treat philosophy is in its simplest form - as the love of wisdom, because there are many different ways to approach wisdom, and many different levels to it. One level, one way does not preclude the other, yet there are times when we need to exclude the others so that we can understand the one more. 
Now, since this is a music site, we can apply these ideas to music. I love prog. It is my favorite form of music. Does this mean that I cannot listen to any other kind? In no way. Currently, I am listening to Jazz - Pat Metheny. A short while ago I was listening to some Pop - Annie Lennox. Even earlier I was listening to Jean Redpath sing songs of Robert Burns. And before that I listened to Selling England by the Pound. I also squeezed in some Ramones today. I do not expect one genre to be any other, and I enjoy music itself to such an extent that my tastes are very broad. I think that some level of intellect is involved with that. I only started appreciating Jazz and Classical once I started learning about music. I do regard myself as an intellectual but do not consider myself especially intelligent. We need not intellectualize to enjoy something, and as others have said, I simply enjoy Prog. By coming to know about the music, by gaining a deeper understanding of it, I appreciate it all the more. So greater knowledge has enhanced my enjoyment of Prog, but is not the source of that enjoyment. 
One more point: A blind response to Nietzsche's work, whether it is positive or negative, is against the purpose of his writing. If you automatically agree with him, you've missed the point. If you automatically disagree with him, you've also missed it. But if you think about it, and take in what makes sense to you and reject what doesn't, then you're getting the idea.
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The world of sound is certainly capable of infinite variety and, were our sense developed, of infinite extensions. -- George Santayana, "The Sense of Beauty"
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MuteArchitects
Forum Newbie
Joined: May 20 2010
Location: USA
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Points: 6
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Posted: May 20 2010 at 22:12 |
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My momma says I'm special
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UndercoverBoy
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 10 2009
Location: Tulsa, OK, U.S.
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Points: 5148
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Posted: May 20 2010 at 22:36 |
MuteArchitects wrote:
My momma says I'm special |
You are because you listen to Prog. The most enlightened and complex music in the entire universe.
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InClouds
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 30 2010
Location: MInnesota, USA
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Points: 109
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Posted: May 20 2010 at 23:12 |
UndercoverBoy wrote:
MuteArchitects wrote:
My momma says I'm special |
You are because you listen to Prog. The most enlightened and complex music in the entire universe. |
So...why do people think we're snobs again?
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A Person
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 10 2008
Location: __
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Points: 65760
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Posted: May 20 2010 at 23:18 |
InClouds wrote:
UndercoverBoy wrote:
MuteArchitects wrote:
My momma says I'm special |
You are because you listen to Prog. The most enlightened and complex music in the entire universe. |
So...why do people think we're snobs again? |
They fear what they don't understand, they see us listening to this music and to them it is some sort of mystical experience, they are afraid our of knowledge and enlightenment, so they label us snobs and shun us. :(
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The T
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
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Points: 17493
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Posted: May 20 2010 at 23:26 |
MuteArchitects wrote:
My momma says I'm special |
And if you believe it too much, you'll grow up a narcissist and useless... 
We're all so much more alike than we like to think, and the few truly special people usually don't go around singing it to the winds...
Edited by The T - May 20 2010 at 23:27
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UndercoverBoy
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 10 2009
Location: Tulsa, OK, U.S.
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Posted: May 20 2010 at 23:40 |
I agree. I am so upset that my family is so close-minded that they hate Magma. If only they were as intellectual and open-minded as I was.
(Note: This is all sarcasm.)
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Jim Garten
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin & Razor Guru
Joined: February 02 2004
Location: South England
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Points: 14693
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Posted: May 21 2010 at 02:00 |
MuteArchitects wrote:
My momma says I'm special |
Me too - so much so, I went to a special school; you had to be sent there by a magistrate
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Jon Lord 1941 - 2012
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Jim Garten
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin & Razor Guru
Joined: February 02 2004
Location: South England
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Points: 14693
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Posted: May 21 2010 at 02:01 |
Tony R wrote:
Jim Garten wrote:
That's as maybe, but the eminent Arab philosopher Alsheikh Rafa'a Altahtawi posits:
Alsheikh Rafa'a Altahtawi wrote:
ليس صخرة تقدّميّة ال [إإكسكلوسف بروبرتي] من المثقفة, [نو متّر وهت] ضيّقة يبالى طالبات مدّعية يمكن فكّرت |
And I really don't think you can argue with that  |
No officer above the rank of mess sergeant is permitted to go into
combat with pierced nipplesErr, quite Jim. |
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Jon Lord 1941 - 2012
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Symphonie
Forum Newbie
Joined: February 18 2009
Status: Offline
Points: 4
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Posted: May 21 2010 at 02:10 |
It seems
difficult on this forum to discuss certain 'hot' topics. This is not because some people have opinions that might offend
others that they are not valid. Would not it be
easier to simply try to understand the point of view of each other
without shouting to snobbery? (ahhhhh would I be in the
process of moralizing? sorry ) It is not true that because
someone is special he really is, but he is not obligated either to hide his differences to the world and melt into the crowd. This is a simple discussion on a possible correlation between
intellectualism and love of progressive music, and as Progosopher so
aptly said:
Progosopher wrote:
[ By coming to know about the music, by gaining a deeper understanding of it, I appreciate it all the more. So greater knowledge has enhanced my enjoyment of Prog, but is not the source of that enjoyment.
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He simply give its
views to the original question. That looks like a
real discussion.
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Atavachron
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: September 30 2006
Location: Pearland
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Points: 65523
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Posted: May 21 2010 at 02:10 |
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^^ oddly in the Russian army no officer is allowed to go into combat without pierced nipples, or at least a needle punched into chest tissue to induce toughness
Edited by Atavachron - May 21 2010 at 02:10
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Synchestra
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 07 2009
Location: New Zealand
Status: Offline
Points: 734
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Posted: May 21 2010 at 02:38 |
The T wrote:
JLocke wrote:
Henry Plainview wrote:
I only have three things to add to this thread:
1. People who call themselves "intellectuals" are, almost exclusively, a bunch of w**kers.
2. The only thing IQ tests measure is how good you are at taking IQ tests, and anybody who's actually intelligent realizes that they are meaningless to the world outside of the MENSA meetings where they solve puzzle books.
3. I think that enjoying experimental music of any time depends largely on your willingness to be open to new things, as most people, unfortunately, find things that are unfamiliar to them unpleasant and disorienting. Everybody filters their current experiences through their past ones, but for some reason we have a constant desire for novelty that outweighs the naturally conservative effects of our brain. I would agree that some prog is more contemplative, but that's not a trait that's exclusive to it.
P.S. Neitzsche was a dick. |
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Nietzsche was a sex-deprived man who spent too much time thinking and little time actually living. I remember a few years ago I used to think things like him, I started to become somewhat of a little-Friedrich in my views of the world and of people and of relations and of power and everything.....until I finally found social company.... And all that sh*t went to hell
Prog music, again, is not even THE most difficult or complex or advanced music out there. It pales in comparison next to academic ("classical") music, it fails next to jazz, etc. People who think they're smarter just because they listen to prog need to go out and prove themselves in the world. Go out and talk with people about real-live, every-day things... if you can't even carry a decent water-dispenser conversation, congratulations, you're a prog genius and a social idiot. |
I get like that, my thinking seems to sway from 'hurp durp all life is suffering, I am here only to ponder whats wrong with myself and relate it to people who are just a plague on the earth blah blah blah' to 'people are by and large nice and friendly, and even if they weren't I'm going to hang out with my friends and play xbox and not care about it' and thats based entirely on my social situation at the time. Although either way alcohol is involved 
On topic though, I don't think intelligence really defines personal taste. Unless you count people eating expensieve meals they can't pronounce, going to plays they don't understand and listening to classical music with a faux-interested look on their face purely because they deem it an 'intellectual' thing to do personal taste. My love of prog stems from the fact that I spend alot of time with it, while people I know love pop because they can put it on once in a while and just dance around when they want. Am I more intelligent because of that? Hardly.
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'Yeah, thats.. Whatever you're talking about for ya' - Zapp brannigan
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Rocktopus
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 02 2006
Location: Norway
Status: Offline
Points: 4202
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Posted: May 21 2010 at 04:14 |
JLocke wrote:
The T wrote:
kingfriso wrote:
Somehow the word 'intellectual' got very loaded with negativity around here. Because
it has been used to describe people who don't do anything but read and
talk and present themselves as superior only because of that, when they
might well be extremely handicapped in other areas of life. Being
intellectual is not bad at all. What's bad is thinking that because you
are one your sh*t doesn't stink. I myself am an intellectual,
which means I study and have an interest in head-breaking matters as
world politics, art, ethics, philosophy, physics and human behaviors.
The majority of people in Holland (I don't know what's the situation in
other countries) don't care about more then one of these intellectual
matters I've mentioned (I guess 40% don't care about a single one). Most
people don't have TIME or education to be interested in those things.
Some people have to, well, you know, SURVIVE first...
These
matters are important for our society, for our freedom, for human
progress. Then why is the word 'intellectual' so bad? I'm proud to be
able to understand problems and think of solutions of problems on a
bigger or more sophisticated scale. But it would
be more useful if you come up with those solutions and make them public
and of any utility for the rest. If not is just mental jerk-off. This
also applies to the music I'm listening to. I'm able to like music that
has more sophistication and a way bigger concept that most three-minute
pop-songs. I can't stress this enough: don't
think have reached THE upper echelon of complex music by listening to
Yes or Magma... Try some academic (classical) music and compare
please.. Or even some jazz...
And I do think the average prog listener is more intellectual then the average hit-chart or hip-hop listener.Yes,
probably. But not because of a difference in intelligence. They have
been socialized different, they were raised different, in different
environments, with different goals, etc etc etc. Prog music is harder to understand and has older listeners that have had more time think. Not
really. Most old people of intellect I know disdain prog music in favor
of classical music or jazz or even folk music... Is not THAT hard to
understand when you compare it with, say, Schoenberg. |
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Glad somebody finally got around to this guy. I knew you'd deliver, T. |
Paravion wrote:
There's not necessarily anything wrong with the word 'intellectual'. As the guy writing in red says, in this particular context - where it (as I see it) is used to refer to the range of people who assumes a possible correlation between prog and intellect - there is something wrong with it.
kingfriso wrote:
I myself am an intellectual, which means I study and have an interest in head-breaking matters as world politics, art, ethics, philosophy, physics and human behaviors. The majority of people in Holland (I don't know what's the situation in other countries) don't care about more then one of these intellectual matters I've mentioned (I guess 40% don't care about a single one). |
To make guesses like that disqualifies you as an intellectual. You really can't say unless you examine it properly (ie. not solely based on own or peer experiences). A survey determined to find out what percentage of Hollands population engage themselves in this sort of higher thinking would be pseudoscientific and plain stupid. Luckily, not everyone thinks about things in abstract and complex terms. We need intellectuals - but we certainly also need those who are not 'tormented' by head-breaking matters.
Also, real intellectuals would never present themselves as intellectuals. They are called so by others and it would be way too self-indulgent. |
As if intellectuals need to have a special kind of dignity to them. Who are you to make these rules?A true intellectual doesn't need to be some kind of humble saint with no vanity. Its basically critical and analytical thinking on some level. All kinds of personalities can be an intellectual, but not all kinds of intelligence.
What's wrong with you all here? There's nothing wrong with kingfriso considering himself an
intellelectual. So he's disqualified because he made some guesses? Its like disqualifying the athlete because he once had a bag of crisps, but I couldn't think of anything healthier than people exercising their braincells more. I believe critical thinking is the best tool against all the world's wrongs, greed and stupidity. Some of you would surely have loved it in Cambodia in the 70's.
Edited by Rocktopus - May 21 2010 at 04:26
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Over land and under ashes
In the sunlight, see - it flashes
Find a fly and eat his eye
But don't believe in me
Don't believe in me
Don't believe in me
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Paravion
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 01 2010
Location: Denmark
Status: Offline
Points: 470
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Posted: May 21 2010 at 04:18 |
Sckxyss wrote:
Intelligence has nothing to do with pride or "self-indulgence"... he is simply being self-aware. I'm sure every truly smart person knows that they're smart.
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I'm not confusing intelligence with pride or self-indulgence. Nor am I confusing being an intellectual with being intelligent or smart. It is the social act of claiming "I'm an intellectual" that I see as self-indulgent.
Sckxyss wrote:
You're saying that as soon as they tell someone, they're no longer a real intellectual? |
No. I'm saying that 'intellectual' is something you are labeled. It's not up to the self-aware intelligent people to determine whether they are intellectuals.
Sckxyss wrote:
Also, while Friso's first observation doesn't prove his intelligence, it also doen't disqualify him as you claim . |
Disqualify is probably too harsh - but to generalize immediately from own observations and deduce an assumption (hypothesis) that is valid only because the observer is a self-aware intellectual - is not intellectual (scientific) behaviour in my book. < ="-" ="text/; =utf-8"> < ="-" ="text/; =utf-8">
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Babak RP
Forum Newbie
Joined: May 18 2010
Location: Tehran, Iran
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Posted: May 21 2010 at 04:41 |
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
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Posted: May 21 2010 at 04:51 |
Surely it is a measure of being "intellectual" to derive a assumption based on pure reason from observation just as much as it is to draw a conclusion based on deduction from empirical data - both are scientific (with a small "s") even if the first lacks any scientific rigor or proof, it is simply a hypothesis that requires further testing.
However, a guess that 40% of the population of The Netherlands do not care about any intellectual matters is merely a figure of speech and is neither based on observation nor empirical data.
Edited by Dean - May 21 2010 at 04:52
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What?
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Paravion
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 01 2010
Location: Denmark
Status: Offline
Points: 470
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Posted: May 21 2010 at 04:54 |
Rocktopus wrote:
Paravion wrote:
There's not necessarily anything wrong with the word 'intellectual'. As the guy writing in red says, in this particular context - where it (as I see it) is used to refer to the range of people who assumes a possible correlation between prog and intellect - there is something wrong with it.
kingfriso wrote:
I myself am an intellectual, which means I study and have an interest in head-breaking matters as world politics, art, ethics, philosophy, physics and human behaviors. The majority of people in Holland (I don't know what's the situation in other countries) don't care about more then one of these intellectual matters I've mentioned (I guess 40% don't care about a single one). |
To make guesses like that disqualifies you as an intellectual. You really can't say unless you examine it properly (ie. not solely based on own or peer experiences). A survey determined to find out what percentage of Hollands population engage themselves in this sort of higher thinking would be pseudoscientific and plain stupid. Luckily, not everyone thinks about things in abstract and complex terms. We need intellectuals - but we certainly also need those who are not 'tormented' by head-breaking matters.
Also, real intellectuals would never present themselves as intellectuals. They are called so by others and it would be way too self-indulgent. |
As if intellectuals need to have a special kind of dignity to them. Who are you to make these rules?A true intellectual doesn't need to be some kind of humble saint with no vanity. Its basically critical and analytical thinking on some level. All kinds of personalities can be an intellectual, but not all kinds of intelligence.
What's wrong with you all here? There's nothing wrong with kingfriso considering himself an
intellelectual. So he's disqualified because he made some guesses? Its like disqualifying the athlete because he once had a bag of crisps, but I couldn't think of anything healthier than people exercising their braincells more. I believe critical thinking is the best tool against all the world's wrongs, greed and stupidity.
Some of you would surely have loved it in Cambodia in the 70's. |
Sure... 
I can't argue with your definition of intellectual, but It seems vague unprecise and idiosyncratic. "Its basically critical and analytical thinking on some level. All kinds of personalities can be an intellectual, but not all kinds of intelligence. " I would propose considering contextual circumstances more - as in how, where and when is the term 'intellectual' actually applied to people. Also, I wouldn't want to propose character traits that a true intellectual has to possess.
rocktopus wrote:
I believe critical thinking is the best tool against all the world's wrongs, greed and stupidity. |
Not really. Thinking without the action is useless.
Edited by Paravion - May 21 2010 at 04:56
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Prog and Intellect
