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Chris S

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Posted: April 23 2010 at 02:57

b_olariu wrote:

This discussion gets boring and nowhere, what is the point after all. Anyway I'm agree with Ivan 100%. Chris made some unremarkable points lately here. I want to know how long will this go

That's your opinion and I guess one of the reasons that prog died in the late 70's because people were adverse to change. Rave on punk and the late Malcolm....

To call late Genesis a ' Debacle" makes me realize that even the most credible opinions here amount to " not too much"

The OCD behaviour of some to exclude ' Emotional" well known artists is a joke versus inclusion of newer unknown bands.

I won't relent on this subject nor will Ivan ( all credit to him), not while this site exists ( and no, I am not on Phil's payroll)

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Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down

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Posted: April 23 2010 at 10:37

Chris S wrote:

That's your opinion and I guess one of the reasons that prog died in the late 70's because people were adverse to change. Rave on punk and the late Malcolm...

Well Chris, I don't believe Prog died in the late 70's, Prog entered in a crisis because the most representative Progressive Rock bands left Progressive Rock behind and started to release POP oriented albums in a valid (for them) attempt of making real money.

And that's OK, every musician or band has the God given right to release whatever they want, they also have the right to say Progressive Rock is crap and to thank Punk for shaking the musical tree and make bad bands (referring to Prog), fall like bad apples...(This was almost literally said by Phil Collins in Genesis a History).

But don't expect Progressive Rock fans to still want to praise this guys or to believe Illegal Alien is a masterpiece.

It's so clear that Prog didn't died in the 70's, that as soon as bands like Anglagard and Par Lindh Project started to release Prog albums again, the genre resurrected.

As soon as a band like Dream Theater (That I don't like), dared to blend Metal with Prog, they got new fans, as soon as an Alternative band like Radiohead dared to do something more adventurous and close to Prog, created interest in the people.

Also remember that the Prog fan (Unlike most mainstream fans) follows MUSIC, not NAMES, when Rick Wakeman released Six Wifes, everybody got the album, when he released Rhapsodies, not even his fans wanted to buy the album, it was Prog, yes, but it was sub-standard for him, and people didn't liked it.

Chris S wrote:

To call late Genesis a ' Debacle" makes me realize that even the most credible opinions here amount to " not too much"

For those of us who grew with the Prog masterpieces, albums like ABACAB or Shapes were a debacle, they were making music some of us hated. Except the Brazilian, I don't find any post Duke song I can listen, hat's my taste, you have to accept it.

Chris S wrote:

The OCD behaviour of some to exclude ' Emotional" well known artists is a joke versus inclusion of newer unknown bands.

Chris, if an emotional and well known artist makes a Prog album..great, we will add him, but if this same artist makes great or bad POP, they can't be added to a Progressive Rock site, because this is not the place for that music.

If an obscure or absolutely unknown artist makes Progressive Rock albums, it's our duty to add them to "The ultimate Progressive Rock Resource", that's why we are here, because of Progressive Rock, we want to make the biggest and most reliable PROGRESSIVE ROCK database.

For other genres, there are other sites, I wouldn't ask to Punk77 to add "In the Court of the Crimson King", because Fripp is such a great artist, no..They are in the web to promote Punk, no matter how good Gabriel, Fripp, Emerson, Wakeman and whoever we admire is, Punk77 doesn't have to ad them, because they would loose credibility among their fans.

The big emotional artist argument makes no sense, we are here for the music, not for the stature or importance oof the artist.

Chris S wrote:

I won't relent on this subject nor will Ivan ( all credit to him), not while this site exists ( and no, I am not on Phil's payroll)

Nobody believes you have any interest, you are as stubbornn and me and you know whatyoun like, and I resopect that even if I disagree with your opinion.

Iván.

The T

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Posted: April 23 2010 at 11:17

Oh add him now! If only for SuSudio... Tongue

Chris S

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Posted: April 23 2010 at 13:14

^ haha.....yes let's add his most pop single to PA.

Let me redefine my earlier statement, the perception was that prog had died in the late 70's with the advent of punk, new wave etc but some people believe even as 'prog purists' that Duke, Abacab and Shapes were great prog albums albeit more pop orientated as were 80's Camel etc.

Face Value was a IMO a solid prog offering for the early 80's.Perhaps as he we such an influential person for other artists releases also , i.e Daryl Stuermer he should be included into PA as an entry/Bio but with no albums listed but recognising his credentials..... Because the majority 'Prog Community' believe he does not exist, at the very least recognise his individual status. But again that would be against PA rules and regulations

Anyway I won't give up that is my OCD stubborness

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Posted: April 24 2010 at 10:03

Chris S wrote:

^ haha.....yes let's add his most pop single to PA.

Anyway I won't give up that is my OCD stubborness

I take a position to the "right" of you but not as "conservative" as Ivan. I think 80s Genesis is great Prog although the albums are littered with mediocre pop (oddly often worst than Phil Collins solo). The albums are contradictory and prog purists don't like that. But it was pretty common, you see elements of AOR and Pop in most albums from the 80s, even neo-prog like Pallas' The Sentinel. Of course Asia fuses Prog sensibilities with an overwhelming dose of pop and AOR. Genesis by these standards was quite progressive, with long compositions, instrumentals and interesting lyrics and concepts.

Phil Collins brings to bear a lot of interesting musical textures, moods, considerate, oftentimes interesting lyrics and concepts. In this respect he is similar to Genesis, but I disagree that anything he did is Prog.

Some albums are really, really good pop, such as Both Sides, and contributions like In the Air, Another Day in Paradise, I don't care anymore, etc. His No Jacket Required is quite blatant on the other hand. Nevertheless, it is still good.

Overall, it would be nice to have him on the site, and I don't think anyone would complain too loudly about Genesis' drummer being on the site, it is after all, probably the biggest Prog band in history, or in the top two or three. We have all the non-prog albums by every artist on this site, why not the non-prog albums of one of their members?

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Posted: April 24 2010 at 10:26

RoyFairbank wrote:

Overall, it would be nice to have him on the site,

It would be nice to have many artists, I would love to review "Tea for the Tillerman" which is a fantastic album.................But it isn't Prog, so there's no place for him in Prog Archives, even if he recruited

But Prog Archives was created to have a Prog database, not a "nice" database.

RoyFairbank wrote:

and I don't think anyone would complain too loudly about Genesis' drummer being on the site,

I would, I consider there's no place for a Pop artist who never released a single Prog note (as a soloist), much less if he publicly declared his despise for Progressive Rock.

If he's here..Why not Billy Joel? Billly played in a Prog band called Attila (And he never said Prog was crap)..

RoyFairbank wrote:

t is after all, probably the biggest Prog band in history, or in the top two or three.

Yes, Genesis is the best band in history according to my taste....but Genesis is already here.

RoyFairbank wrote:

We have all the non-prog albums by every artist on this site, why not the non-prog albums of one of their members?

This artists are he because even if they released 100 POP albums...They had at least one Prog album, so it's ok to add that album (and for that reason all his dischography.

But Collins doesn't have a Prog song, so why should we add the 100% non Prog dischography of an artist?

Iván

Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - April 24 2010 at 10:30

omri

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Posted: April 25 2010 at 11:32

I just wanted to tell Chris that I admire him for fighting for his ideas (which personally I don't agree with). I think everyone has the right to do that and if someone finds it boring he can move on to another thread.

I wish to support Ivan and claim that actually 2 songs of Billy Joel (Piano man & NY state of mind) are much more proggier than In the air tonight (IMO) and still I don't find Joel as a prog artist.

I realy feel the problem started with the adition of Supertramp who do not have even one full prog album (Dreamer, remember ?).

It's only my thoughts and it's ofcorse debateable.

omri

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Posted: April 25 2010 at 11:56

We all respect Chris fight, he believes Face Value is Prog, I disagree radically, but I wouldn't accept any disrespect for hs opinion and fight.

As a fact,. this is one of the few times I'm in the majority, because my position is 100% purist and usually people don't agree with this, but since I'm here, my opinions ghave been accepted, somethimes I got what I believed and a lot more I lost, but the fun is in the debate.

I would never join a forum in which I say "The Musical Box is the best song ever" (what I believe) and as repkly I receive 100% of support...I want to see people saying that Close to the Edge is Better or even a Dream Theater song (Which I don't like), or even people saying The Musical Box is mediocre if they give reasonable arguments I can contradict or at least debate.

We are not here to add bands automatically, we are here to make a case, to support it, to deate with those who disagree and to accept what the administrators or the teams decide,.......The fun and the importance of a discussion forum...In discussion itself, and if somebody gets bored, there are always fan clubs where everything good you say about an artist will be cheered by the vast majority.

My full respect to Chris.

Iván

Garion81

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Posted: April 25 2010 at 13:26

Phil Collins as a solo artist no way. But he is here in two bands Genesis and Brand X. Thus he is respected for the prog he did, at one time, play. I don't see Dennis DeYoung here either but Styx is here. I think these two are related for this argument. Phil has created no prog as a solo Artist and neither has Dennis so they do not belong. He as member of two groups did produce prog and both of the groups are here.

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Posted: April 25 2010 at 17:43

Actually, I think the issue that transcends whether Phil's albums are listed on Progarchives is whether the prog community matures beyond its quasi-mythological resentment of him. He is not some Judas figure, seriously, like so many portray him. Genesis under his co-stewardship radically departed from their modus operandi of former times, but not a single major Prog band of the 70s ended the 80s with the same record or style as they had in the 70s. 80s Genesis was an expression of the times, and one which, nevertheless, was as much designed to appeal to Prog fans as pop and AOR fans, with a significant portion of the actual time on every album being devoted to a type of slick but recognizable prog, (incontestably; 15 minutes even on the unpopular Invisible Touch, versus 9 minutes of Phil Collins solo type material, and well over 30 minutes of Prog on We Can't Dance). Phil Collins may have found a comfort zone in making Pop, but he is not to blame personally for what is clearly a historical and general shift in music away from not only Prog but even thoughtful music in the 80s and 90s. Its akin to burning cultural problems in effigy using Phil Collins as a straw man. I might add, that it would be futile to try to deny this overzealous sentiment in the prog community, its already been acknowledged and exhibited here on this thread. In the end, Phil Collins was an excellent Prog drummer, an emotional vocalist and wrote and composed a good deal of the material of classic Genesis; he even reunited with Genesis in 2006/2007 and was willing to do so with the classic lineup. Though it may be disappointing that he did not fight against the tide, perhaps it would be more mature if the Prog Community accepts his work in its context instead of holding what it could be against him.

Edited by RoyFairbank - April 25 2010 at 17:47

Garion81

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Posted: April 25 2010 at 17:54

^Again he is listed in the this site as a member of the two prog groups in which he created some great prog moments. If he had one or two solo albums that reflected either of the prog styles he was famous for in Genesis or Brand X no one and I mean no one including Ivan would object to his inclusion. I would even go so far as to be lenient enough that if he included one such song on each of his albums I would be open to it. For whatever reason Phil did not do this. Really, this is the only objection no matter what one feels about what happened to Genesis. There is no prog in his solo material.

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Posted: April 26 2010 at 09:17

Chris S wrote:

( and no, I am not on Phil's payroll)

But if Phil were to like slip you some money under the table... Tongue

The South Park guys like to poke phun at Phil.

Edited by Slartibartfast - April 26 2010 at 09:23

Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...

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Posted: April 26 2010 at 12:23

Garion81 wrote:

^Again he is listed in the this site as a member of the two prog groups in which he created some great prog moments. If he had one or two solo albums that reflected either of the prog styles he was famous for in Genesis or Brand X no one and I mean no one including Ivan would object to his inclusion. I would even go so far as to be lenient enough that if he included one such song on each of his albums I would be open to it. For whatever reason Phil did not do this. Really, this is the only objection no matter what one feels about what happened to Genesis. There is no prog in his solo material.

As a fact, Mike Rutherford is as responsible as Collins for the change in Genesis style, but nobody questioned his adition because of "Smallcreeps Day", a terrible album (In my opinion of course), but a Prog Related album anyway.

If Phil had something similar, well, I wouldn't say a word.

Iván

Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - April 26 2010 at 12:24

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Posted: April 26 2010 at 13:29

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

If Phil had something similar, well, I wouldn't say a word.

Iván

I like Smallcreep. Mike went on to do much worse.

Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...

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Posted: April 26 2010 at 13:43

Obviously you didn't read my post, I wasn't arguing for his inclusion, I was making a grand philosophical point about the role Phil Collins plays in Prog fan's explanation of Prog's historical decline.

Ermm

RoyFairbank wrote:

Actually, I think the issue that transcends whether Phil's albums are listed on Progarchives is whether the prog community matures beyond its quasi-mythological resentment of him. He is not some Judas figure, seriously, like so many portray him. Genesis under his co-stewardship radically departed from their modus operandi of former times, but not a single major Prog band of the 70s ended the 80s with the same record or style as they had in the 70s. 80s Genesis was an expression of the times, and one which, nevertheless, was as much designed to appeal to Prog fans as pop and AOR fans, with a significant portion of the actual time on every album being devoted to a type of slick but recognizable prog, (incontestably; 15 minutes even on the unpopular Invisible Touch, versus 9 minutes of Phil Collins solo type material, and well over 30 minutes of Prog on We Can't Dance). Phil Collins may have found a comfort zone in making Pop, but he is not to blame personally for what is clearly a historical and general shift in music away from not only Prog but even thoughtful music in the 80s and 90s. Its akin to burning cultural problems in effigy using Phil Collins as a straw man. I might add, that it would be futile to try to deny this overzealous sentiment in the prog community, its already been acknowledged and exhibited here on this thread. In the end, Phil Collins was an excellent Prog drummer, an emotional vocalist and wrote and composed a good deal of the material of classic Genesis; he even reunited with Genesis in 2006/2007 and was willing to do so with the classic lineup. Though it may be disappointing that he did not fight against the tide, perhaps it would be more mature if the Prog Community accepts his work in its context* instead of holding what it could be against him.

*that is, historical context

Edited by RoyFairbank - April 26 2010 at 13:48

Chris S

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Posted: April 26 2010 at 13:49

Slartibartfast wrote:

Chris S wrote:

( and no, I am not on Phil's payroll)

But if Phil were to like slip you some money under the table... Tongue

The South Park guys like to poke phun at Phil.

Brian...stop trying to make this thread funny. It is not funny!!!!!

I am another who agrees that Rutherford's Smallcreep's Day was very good

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Chris S

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Posted: April 26 2010 at 13:53

So eloquently put, and whilst I know you do not agree PC should be included I think your sentiments regarding this very important Prog pioneer should be applauded.

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Garion81

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Posted: April 26 2010 at 14:07

"perhaps it would be more mature if the Prog Community accepts his work in its context* instead of holding what it could be against him"

That is the statement I was referring too. I don't revile Phil at all. Sure I don't like some of the things he said in the past but all three remaining members were in agreement to the shift towards the pop style and there is nothing wrong with that. I am saying he is not being dissed here at all by not including his solo works.

Persuade us based on his solo material and why do you think it should be here in a progressive rock site that its only criteria for inclusion is your output has to have at least one prog album. This is not based on him, or his legacy as that has already been addressed by the inclusion of both Genesis and Brand X. This is based entirely on his solo output which is different than his work with those two bands. Another example I will give is a band Called Native Window. It contains all of the members of the present Kansas touring group sans Stave Walsh. I would never even consider them to be included here because they play a very pop/rock sort of music. It isn't bad but it isn't prog either. In your argument above it would be yes for inclusion it should based on their content as a whole. That is the point I am making. Tony Banks, Mike Rutherford , Steve Hackett and Peter Gabriel all have recorded progressive rock albums in their solo catalogs and Phil did not. It is that simple.

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Chris S

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Posted: April 26 2010 at 15:10

^ It is simple as far as opinions go. I believe Face Value is a prog album, as was Shapes, Abacab and Invisible Touch whether they went in a pop/AOR direction or not.

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Posted: April 26 2010 at 16:15

Well, you can put me squarely in the middle of the road along with yellow stripes and dead armadillos regarding Phil's inclusion as a solo artist. He's already here in a big way. I think the album has its proggy moments. The rest of the catalog I honestly don't have any familiarity to comment on. The three Genesis albums Chris mentioned I do know, but I only have Abacab in my collection, which gets a lot of flak, but I still like it.

Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...