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presdoug 
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Joined: January 24 2010
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 Topic: Tired of 40 years of ELP Bashing
Posted: April 29 2010 at 20:44 |
 Hoodlum wrote:
ELP are one of the many bands that I like, yeah. I don't know how much more I can say other than that I enjoy their music and never found it boring... refreshing would rather be the word. Possibly my favourite album of theirs is the self-titled debut.
But yeah most people have followed the critics' opinions and denounced them as sh*t. But seriously, what's a better listen, ELP or the Sex Pistols? I know which one I'd choose.
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I concurr with what you are saying-ELP have created rock music that is artistic, intelligent, and creative, whereas the Pistols, well a lot of people like them, but they are "non-music music". For me, if there ever was a band i truly love to bash, it is the Clash-hey, let's bash the Clash!
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stonebeard
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Posted: April 29 2010 at 19:49 |
wentka wrote:
Every time I read a review of ELP, the words "bombastic" , "pretentious", and "arrogant" are used. I don't know who the first critic was that used these words to describe them, but every critic since has regergated and perpetuated this. I would venture to guess that every critic that repeats this has never sat down and gave ELP a listen.
"Bombastic"? Because Keith Emerson played a grand piano and toured with that beast of a Moog synthesizer? Because Carl Palmer's drum kit was on a stand that rotated? Because Greg Lake preferred to stand on a persion rug (that covered a multitude of twisted wires - because he had been electrocuted one too many times)? What's bombastic about that? Now let's get to the "Pretentious" part. These three guys are uber talented musicians. Because of that, they challenged themselves, they challenged their audience, and they challenged the established rules. So I dismiss this charge. It's not pretentious, it's innovative. Now comes the evil "arrogant". I give this a "maybe" or even a "yes". So I say to you - so what?! These guys busted their asses for every recording (in the early days) and every live show. Yes, they wanted it all to be perfect. And when it wasn't perfect, they got pissed. Sure wish more musicians creating music cared that much about their output.
I think that all the ELP bashing is nothing more than reverse snobbery. Critics that bash ELP aren't musicians. And if they are, they're just envious of the talent. Nobody said you have to like ELP. Their music isn't for everybody - it's complicated. If you don't like it, you don't like it. But enough with bashing. If you're going to write a review, make it a genuine effort and stop repeating the same 40 years of "bombastic", "pretentious", and "arrogant".
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I prefer to describe ELP as somewhat talented rock musicians trying way too hard to make really deep music but failing to realize that they are just w**king all over the place with crap keyboard sounds and a pathetic lack of parsimony.
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Hoodlum
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Joined: April 29 2010
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Posted: April 29 2010 at 19:39 |
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ELP are one of the many bands that I like, yeah. I don't know how much more I can say other than that I enjoy their music and never found it boring... refreshing would rather be the word. Possibly my favourite album of theirs is the self-titled debut.
But yeah most people have followed the critics' opinions and denounced them as sh*t. But seriously, what's a better listen, ELP or the Sex Pistols? I know which one I'd choose.
Edited by Hoodlum - April 29 2010 at 19:40
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shockedjazz
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Posted: April 29 2010 at 11:02 |
Henry Plainview wrote:
I'm tired of 40 years of people making threads complaining about people complaining about ELP.
wentka wrote:
Their music isn't for everybody - it's complicated. |
Are you seriously suggesting that people who don't like ELP can't appreciate complicated music? ELP is not exactly the most technical music ever written.
wentka wrote:
Now let's get to the "Pretentious" part. These three guys are uber talented musicians. Because of that, they challenged themselves, they challenged their audience, and they challenged the established rules. So I dismiss this charge. It's not pretentious, it's innovative. |
Some would say that playing pieces written a hundred years ago isn't exactly moving forward...
wentka wrote:
I think that all the ELP bashing is nothing more than reverse snobbery. |
So they secretly like ELP but won't admit it?
| Critics that bash ELP aren't musicians. And if they are, they're just envious of the talent. |
Hahahaha! Do you have any idea how ridiculous this sounds? |
You hit the nail.!
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Garion81
Special Collaborator
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Joined: May 22 2004
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Posted: April 22 2010 at 18:15 |
richardh wrote:
Much of Works Volume 2 was just 'leftovers' from B-sides,solo hits and rejected tracks from other albums. There was no secret about this. Even the supposedly new song 'Tiger In A Spotlight' was a reworking of a peice of music that ELP performed live around about 1971 (name escapes me).Works Vol 2 was as much a contractural obligation album as Love Beach. |
Love Beach was all orginial material. So no it wasn't the same in my opinion. They actually did some work on Love Beach. In the Hot Seat contained almost all matrial rejected for Black Moon (Gee Thanks ELP) I would put Works II and In the Hot Seat in the obligation crapper bin. 
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"What are you going to do when that damn thing rusts?"
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progpositivity
Prog Reviewer
Joined: December 15 2007
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Posted: April 22 2010 at 17:25 |
ELP? Bombastic? I think so. But "bombastic" need *not* be synonymous with "bad"...
I personally find most of Beethoven's symphonies bombastic on some level. In his *day*, he was always pushing the envelope to make the orchestra *bigger* and *LOUDER*. He was infamous for *destroying* expensive pianos with his heavy-handed playing style. Pianos were made much stronger as a result of the popular response to Beethoven's piano banging.
I must admit that Beethoven wanted to play powerfully moving music. He wasn't just torturing pianos to make a *showy* spectacle out the whole ordeal. I mean - its not like he was stabbing knives into organs or anything like that! 
Of course, he also had soft sections too. No doubt some suspected they were little more than a ruse... a method of making sure you appreciated the *power* of the LOUD sections! 
On the 'pretentious' front, I wish ELP had more clearly cited the composer whenever they lifted classical melodies and/or themes. Fanfare for the Common Man was obvious and was handled very well IMO. But some of the others were a little ambiguous, were they not? The Barbarian? As someone uneducated in classical music, I thought Emerson came up with that musical idea for a while there.
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Positively the best Prog and Fusion 24/7!
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Slartibartfast
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Posted: April 22 2010 at 08:43 |
Keep it up. They can take it. And don't be surprised if Keith throws daggers at your organ.
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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FusionKing
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Posted: April 21 2010 at 18:54 |
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I don't see anything wrong with ELP at all. I don't get it. Personally, most people who I know have heard ELP like them.
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"Man is nothing else but that which he makes of himself" - Sartre
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Slartibartfast
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Posted: April 21 2010 at 18:22 |
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People can take pot shots at ELP all they want, won't alter my opinion. They were in the first tier of prog artists in the '70's.
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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chopper
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Posted: April 21 2010 at 10:32 |
Blacksword wrote:
M27Barney wrote:
You spoilt it by making the fookin horrible smiths an exception , I would rather shag Anne Widdecombe than listen to five minutes of the Smiths...the epitome of a band that REALLY were "The emperors clothes"..... |
Who wouldn't? Ever since she had those hi-lights put in, she looks 50 years younger. She now only looks 45. I believe it's sometimes referred to as 'old gold'
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That's a very worrying statement there, Andy. I'm not going drinking with you again.
Going back to the topic, normally when I see ELP dismissed as "pretentious" it's for one of 2 reasons - either Greg Lake's carpet or the juggernauts they're toured with that had their initials on the top. Check out Stuart Maconie's "Cider with Roadies" which quotes the carpet as being "the size of Lincolnshire" (and he was a fan). It's worth reading for the story of the guy who got a girl back to his place and said "shall I put some music on", so he stuck on Karn Evil 9 and the girl ran away!
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Vibrationbaby
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Posted: April 21 2010 at 09:32 |
Keith Emerson is the biggest pile of talentless Garbage. If I were him I would blast myself off into orbit on the last space shuttle mission. If I had a choice between ELP and the worst Kiss album I would probably go out and buy the entire Céline Dion record library.  Just Kidding. ELP were brilliant. I even like Love Beach. ( read my review ). One of the best rock books ever penned was Pictures Of An Exhibitionist.
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richardh
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Joined: February 18 2004
Location: United Kingdom
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Posted: April 20 2010 at 15:36 |
Much of Works Volume 2 was just 'leftovers' from B-sides,solo hits and rejected tracks from other albums. There was no secret about this. Even the supposedly new song 'Tiger In A Spotlight' was a reworking of a peice of music that ELP performed live around about 1971 (name escapes me).Works Vol 2 was as much a contractural obligation album as Love Beach.
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TODDLER
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Posted: April 20 2010 at 10:50 |
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Kojak
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 03 2010
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Posted: April 20 2010 at 09:40 |
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I've always felt that when something/someone is called pretentious, what the person calling it usually means is, 'I don't understand that,' or 'I wish I had thought of that.'
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billsibb
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Posted: April 20 2010 at 07:24 |
Sorry chaps, but I'm too getting cheesed off with the same pointless criticisms for as long as I can remember - a long time!!
Quite frankly No ELP = No Prog! Their groundbreaking legacy of pushing the limits at every opportunity, although not always successfully, should never have been classed as either "arrogant" or "pretentious".
I think the quality of late-seventies music journalism has a lot to answer for, having been seduced by the lie that was punk, pure only in it's limp simplicity.
Rant over - keep up the good work and thanks for a great forum!
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presdoug
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Joined: January 24 2010
Location: Canada
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Posted: April 19 2010 at 21:10 |
moshkito wrote:
presdoug wrote:
ELP bashing is as stupid as Triumvirat "ELP clone" nonsense, and that is saying something! |
What people sometimes do not realize is how much of an impact a keyboard player had on the music scene in Europe ... it was huge, and the number of keyboard players that came up at the time was huge, and some were good and some were not as good.
Triumvirat and Kayak, and Eloy for that matter, were first introduced by the Harvest label ... and guess whose family that was? ... yep, one band that had become really famous for its own keyboard sound too!
These bands were not "clones" ... they were people that were doing their own thing and they deserve the right and the respect for their abilities and having tried it. We have no right to call them idiots simply because the organ sound is the same in every song, even though it is with different notes and what not.
If we're going to talk about "MUSIC" and develop "PROG" or "PROGRESSIVE", we must learn to accept each musicians' view of the music in different parts of the world. It's just like people going around saying that Banco and PFM sound like ELP, and they don't ... not even close! Even if they showed up on Manticore! ... in fact, it shows the respect that the ELP folks had for many of these people!
A lot more than we are showing here, btw! How would you feel if you were one of them? |
In looking back at the post of mine that you just quoted, i did not realise that what i stated could be taken the wrong way, possibly-Triumvirat "ELP clone" nonsense, refers to the reference to the group's sound as being a direct copy or "clone" of ELP. This is what i think is nonsense-in one of my other previous posts, i give credit to Triumvirat creating refreshing rock music, and having always been a group in their own right. As you have pointed out, there were alot of groups influenced by ELP, but not necessarily "clones"
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moshkito
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Posted: April 19 2010 at 20:11 |
presdoug wrote:
ELP bashing is as stupid as Triumvirat "ELP clone" nonsense, and that is saying something! |
What people sometimes do not realize is how much of an impact a keyboard player had on the music scene in Europe ... it was huge, and the number of keyboard players that came up at the time was huge, and some were good and some were not as good.
Triumvirat and Kayak, and Eloy for that matter, were first introduced by the Harvest label ... and guess whose family that was? ... yep, one band that had become really famous for its own keyboard sound too!
These bands were not "clones" ... they were people that were doing their own thing and they deserve the right and the respect for their abilities and having tried it. We have no right to call them idiots simply because the organ sound is the same in every song, even though it is with different notes and what not.
If we're going to talk about "MUSIC" and develop "PROG" or "PROGRESSIVE", we must learn to accept each musicians' view of the music in different parts of the world. It's just like people going around saying that Banco and PFM sound like ELP, and they don't ... not even close! Even if they showed up on Manticore! ... in fact, it shows the respect that the ELP folks had for many of these people!
A lot more than we are showing here, btw! How would you feel if you were one of them?
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
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richardh
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Posted: April 19 2010 at 17:30 |
Kojak wrote:
To spread the ELP love, here's what looks like a documentary of the Isle of Wight gig that's just recently gone up on youtube. I've not seen it before, don't know how old it is. Enjoy.
ELP Isle of Wight 1970 1/7
www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZopfLuA0_8Y&feature=related
You can catch the other parts whilst there.
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Really good stuff. I havn't see it before and will need to revisit it to watch the other parts.
Greg Lake admits they were pretentious
Keith Emerson has never seen a good review of ELP
Carl Palmer says that everything was substandard at the IOW. The overhead shots of the toilets are very amusing!
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lotuseuropa1
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Posted: April 19 2010 at 16:29 |
ELP kind of lost their way in later years but I am not going to deny the fact that at the age of 16 they were my favourite group. Yes they were technically brilliant & their music benefited from that genius. Arrogant & overblown were not the words the critics in the early '70's used of the group, all they are doing now is going with the 'Prog bashing flow'. I still love ELP, Yes & am only really now getting into Crinson in a big way, I'd love to see ELP come back & do a proper tour in the UK, not arenas - bring it on!
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Kojak
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Joined: April 03 2010
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Posted: April 18 2010 at 11:05 |
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To spread the ELP love, here's what looks like a documentary of the Isle of Wight gig that's just recently gone up on youtube. I've not seen it before, don't know how old it is. Enjoy.
ELP Isle of Wight 1970 1/7
www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZopfLuA0_8Y&feature=related
You can catch the other parts whilst there.
Edited by Kojak - April 18 2010 at 11:05
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Tired of 40 years of ELP Bashing
