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wentka 
Forum Newbie
Joined: April 02 2010
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 Topic: Tired of 40 years of ELP Bashing
Posted: April 13 2010 at 18:50 |
Every time I read a review of ELP, the words "bombastic" , "pretentious", and "arrogant" are used. I don't know who the first critic was that used these words to describe them, but every critic since has regergated and perpetuated this. I would venture to guess that every critic that repeats this has never sat down and gave ELP a listen.
"Bombastic"? Because Keith Emerson played a grand piano and toured with that beast of a Moog synthesizer? Because Carl Palmer's drum kit was on a stand that rotated? Because Greg Lake preferred to stand on a persion rug (that covered a multitude of twisted wires - because he had been electrocuted one too many times)? What's bombastic about that? Now let's get to the "Pretentious" part. These three guys are uber talented musicians. Because of that, they challenged themselves, they challenged their audience, and they challenged the established rules. So I dismiss this charge. It's not pretentious, it's innovative. Now comes the evil "arrogant". I give this a "maybe" or even a "yes". So I say to you - so what?! These guys busted their asses for every recording (in the early days) and every live show. Yes, they wanted it all to be perfect. And when it wasn't perfect, they got pissed. Sure wish more musicians creating music cared that much about their output.
I think that all the ELP bashing is nothing more than reverse snobbery. Critics that bash ELP aren't musicians. And if they are, they're just envious of the talent. Nobody said you have to like ELP. Their music isn't for everybody - it's complicated. If you don't like it, you don't like it. But enough with bashing. If you're going to write a review, make it a genuine effort and stop repeating the same 40 years of "bombastic", "pretentious", and "arrogant".
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Triceratopsoil
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 03 2010
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 18016
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Posted: April 13 2010 at 19:16 |
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I'd never bash anyone who wrote something as brilliant as Tarkus
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moshkito
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 04 2007
Location: Grok City
Status: Online
Points: 17547
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Posted: April 13 2010 at 19:25 |
Hi,
When they first started out, they were powerful and strong in concert and a treat.
When they got famous with all the pirouettes and trying to emulate Pink Floyd's Quadraphonic sound, is when they became pretentious and arrogant and while that is not the description I like to describe them with, I did find that a little more humility and sticking to the music and a bit less sheriff stuff until the encore would have suited them a lot better and given their music more depth and appreciation.
I think the band died after Karn Evil ... that simple. But I could take these 6 albums (did I count them right?) and quickly trim one thing from each album that was a "filler" and detracted from the music they had and their ability.
In those days, the local symphony did not break into a Jimi Hendrix song, to give you an extreme example, to show a "break" in the action and the value of the material that is being played in concert. So, for some reason in a rock context, it is ok to not give a damn about your music and include the "fun songs" that some radio stations played only because it was satirical and often against the top ten songs or numbers listed for this week. "The Sheriff" was one such song, btw!
But when played next to "The Endless Enigma", it takes away from the strength, quality and power, not to mention meaning of the words in this piece. And that was what turned me off and got me to walk out! Karn Evil meant nothing to them and the serious music was nothing but riffs and just pop songs? I really didn't think so.
In the end, when you listen to Greg Lake's first 2 solo albums, they are not as good as ELP and his words sound almost hollow, probably because someone was not there to kick the ground under his feet and tell him how to accentuate this or that lyric better. Carl Palmer went on to other places, but in my book the music was "pop music" and not even half as strong as ELP but I suppose one could say that it paid him well? As for Keith ... I don't know. For someone so well trained musically, to not have the "discipline" to create more pieces and extended stuff that showed where a lot of the stuff in ELP came from, was a sad thing for me. I really thought there was more to the man and his music, and in the end ... I could not find it!
What's left?
The combination of the three talents worked. One took his classical ability and added rock punch to it, the other took his folk roots and helped him express himself, the other had to figure out how to color all this variety of music and beats and what not and he did! It wasn't rock'n'roll and that was the joke.
When it became "rock'n'roll" is when the band became pretentious, bombastic and boring ... the music was not the medium anymore!
But I still have those first 4 albums and love them dearly. I can do without Sheriffs and silly songs but there are some things, like Knife Edge, Ednless Enigma and many other pieces that will live on forever in my heart.
And Greg and Keith I hope you both read this as I know you both check this board periodically!
Edited by moshkito - April 13 2010 at 19:27
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com
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Slartibartfast
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam
Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
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Points: 29630
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Posted: April 13 2010 at 20:20 |
For me, Love Beach was their big stumble. I liked the Works, particularly Pirates and the Emerson classical pieces. The earlier albums are really good. Their earlier albums had some humorous moments, which some believe doesn't belong in prog, but to hell with them. 
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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thellama73
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: May 29 2006
Location: United States
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Points: 8368
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Posted: April 13 2010 at 20:26 |
If they wouldn't suck so hard, we wouldn't have to bash them.  Just kidding. I like Tarkus.
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presdoug
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 24 2010
Location: Canada
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Points: 8628
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Posted: April 13 2010 at 21:02 |
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ELP bashing is as stupid as Triumvirat "ELP clone" nonsense, and that is saying something!
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CinemaZebra
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Joined: March 13 2010
Location: Ancient Rome
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Points: 6795
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Posted: April 13 2010 at 21:42 |
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I haven't heard many critics say that other than that little whore Robert Christgau.
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Henry Plainview
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Joined: May 26 2008
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Points: 16715
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Posted: April 13 2010 at 22:40 |
I'm tired of 40 years of people making threads complaining about people complaining about ELP.
 wentka wrote:
Their music isn't for everybody - it's complicated. |
Are you seriously suggesting that people who don't like ELP can't appreciate complicated music? ELP is not exactly the most technical music ever written.
wentka wrote:
Now let's get to the "Pretentious" part. These three guys are uber talented musicians. Because of that, they challenged themselves, they challenged their audience, and they challenged the established rules. So I dismiss this charge. It's not pretentious, it's innovative. |
Some would say that playing pieces written a hundred years ago isn't exactly moving forward...
wentka wrote:
I think that all the ELP bashing is nothing more than reverse snobbery. |
So they secretly like ELP but won't admit it?
| Critics that bash ELP aren't musicians. And if they are, they're just envious of the talent. |
Hahahaha! Do you have any idea how ridiculous this sounds?
Edited by Henry Plainview - April 13 2010 at 22:43
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if you own a sodastream i hate you
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Triceratopsoil
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 03 2010
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 18016
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Posted: April 13 2010 at 22:44 |
Slartibartfast wrote:
For me, Love Beach was their big stumble. I liked the Works, particularly Pirates and the Emerson classical pieces. The earlier albums are really good. Their earlier albums had some humorous moments, which some believe doesn't belong in prog, but to hell with them.
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EXACTLY Pirates is boss
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Slartibartfast
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam
Joined: April 29 2006
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Posted: April 13 2010 at 23:14 |
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Dominic
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 02 2008
Location: Liberation Land
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Points: 651
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Posted: April 13 2010 at 23:21 |
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I like ELP. Lets all be friends
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ExittheLemming
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Joined: October 19 2007
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Points: 11415
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Posted: April 14 2010 at 00:57 |
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It goes without saying that the biggest targets are the easiest to hit. Although I don't have any figures to back this up, I'll wager that ELP were probably the biggest grossing act in Rock circa 73-74 ?
I'm not sure if you are referring to reviews on PA or those that appeared in the music press, but assuming the latter, I'd be forced to say that most music journalists have never been able to countenance virtuosos shifting millions of units. The success of hitherto unhip and grievously uncool reference points used by ELP, they just relegated to a victory for bluff style over substance. It takes the music away from the kids in da street bro. To further deepen said hacks gloom, the fact that ELP drew upon European classical music as a well of inspiration does not sit easily with their estimation that if it ain't lowest common denominator accessible it ain't worthy. Throw in a smidgen of covert racism i.e. not sourced from black contemporary forms, not cyclic rhymically (you can't dance or get laid to it), not ostentiously emotive (soulful ?)and you have all the barbs in place.
Those who document the credibility or otherwise of audible rebellion must be the most conservative people on the planet bar none.
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richardh
Prog Reviewer
Joined: February 18 2004
Location: United Kingdom
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Points: 28126
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Posted: April 14 2010 at 01:42 |
Another thread already!
Since I came on progarchives about 6 years ago there have been several threads of this nature and 2 quite recently.
I will recount what I've said before but in summary (I'm an ELP fan btw)
ELP were not perfect and never tried to be. Music was an adventure for them and good fun until they started falling out.
Greg Lake accepted the pretentious criticism.
..but they also had a sense of humour and liked doing the odd 'fun' tracks. It was part of what they were.
The albums are not consistent as say Yes or Genesis albums were.However they had great peices and a variety of ideas.Thats nots a bad thing in my book but I fully understand why many progheads have reservations about them.
ELP were in their element playing live .They were an extrovert band.
They were most definitely bombastic and I love it!
90% of their best music was recorded before 1974 and so they would have done themselves a favour if they had split earlier. Carrying on as long as they did brought a lot of criticism on their heads that could have been avoided. That said I hate music critics with a vengence. Keith Emerson was apparently appalled at the lack of expertise of journalists when reviewing ELP albums.
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Blacksword
Prog Reviewer
Joined: June 22 2004
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 16130
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Posted: April 14 2010 at 04:47 |
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Most good prog is pretentious to some degree. If anyone has read the sleeve notes to 'Topographic oceans..' you'll see, that on some levels, Yes, made ELP appear rather down to earth.
Personally if I read a review of a band, that described them as 'pretentious' or 'bombastic' I would be very much inclined to check them out! It's artists who are heralded as heroes, because they 'keep it real' and bore people to horrible tears with whining whinging sh*t about real life, who are a real turn off for me. The Smiths being the exception because they were funny, and wrote well crafted songs.
I'm not a huge fan of ELP, but I salute them for p!ssing off so many journalists (and making some good music, of course). Music critics invariably know nothing about music, and are really only concerned with how cool they appear, as individuals; reviewing the 'right' bands and albums, and appearing to be in tune with young music lovers.
ELP were bombastic and over the top, but what many of their critics failed to articulate is why, exactly, is that a bad thing..?
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Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy!
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M27Barney
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 09 2006
Location: Swinton M27
Status: Offline
Points: 3136
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Posted: April 14 2010 at 05:13 |
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You spoilt it by making the fookin horrible smiths an exception , I would rather shag Anne Widdecombe than listen to five minutes of the Smiths...the epitome of a band that REALLY were "The emperors clothes".....
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Blacksword
Prog Reviewer
Joined: June 22 2004
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 16130
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Posted: April 14 2010 at 05:23 |
M27Barney wrote:
You spoilt it by making the fookin horrible smiths an exception , I would rather shag Anne Widdecombe than listen to five minutes of the Smiths...the epitome of a band that REALLY were "The emperors clothes"..... |
Who wouldn't? Ever since she had those hi-lights put in, she looks 50 years younger. She now only looks 45. I believe it's sometimes referred to as 'old gold'
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Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy!
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wentka
Forum Newbie
Joined: April 02 2010
Status: Offline
Points: 8
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Posted: April 14 2010 at 05:32 |
ExittheLemming wrote:
It takes the music away from the kids in da street bro. To further deepen said hacks gloom, the fact that ELP drew upon European classical music as a well of inspiration does not sit easily with their estimation that if it ain't lowest common denominator accessible it ain't worthy. Throw in a smidgen of covert racism i.e. not sourced from black contemporary forms, not cyclic rhymically (you can't dance or get laid to it), not ostentiously emotive (soulful ?)and you have all the barbs in place.
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Thank you. I agree completely.
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M27Barney
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 09 2006
Location: Swinton M27
Status: Offline
Points: 3136
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Posted: April 14 2010 at 06:23 |
wentka wrote:
ExittheLemming wrote:
It takes the music away from the kids in da street bro. To further deepen said hacks gloom, the fact that ELP drew upon European classical music as a well of inspiration does not sit easily with their estimation that if it ain't lowest common denominator accessible it ain't worthy. Throw in a smidgen of covert racism i.e. not sourced from black contemporary forms, not cyclic rhymically (you can't dance or get laid to it), not ostentiously emotive (soulful ?)and you have all the barbs in place.
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Thank you. I agree completely. |
Right then, now we have established that there isn't a woman (on planet earth) over 16 that you wouldn't shag  how does that possibly tie in with ELP's propensity to have genius and utter dross on the same album ? To be fair ELP were NEVER my favourite band and sort of hated them because their on-stage antics were always used to tar all 70's prog rock with the same brush....
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M27Barney
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 09 2006
Location: Swinton M27
Status: Offline
Points: 3136
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Posted: April 14 2010 at 06:24 |
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Oh crap - quoted the wrong post - SORRY !!!!
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Blacksword
Prog Reviewer
Joined: June 22 2004
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 16130
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Posted: April 14 2010 at 06:39 |
M27Barney wrote:
Oh crap - quoted the wrong post - SORRY !!!! |
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Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy!
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Tired of 40 years of ELP Bashing
