Byrds for Proto-Prog

I thought I had already suggested them and many people had disagreed, but it doesn't seem to be the case. In any case I write a bit more

My pro arguments:

The Byrds have always been a band that loved to experiment with new sounds and compositions which weren't typical of the time when they were active (1964 until 1972).

Mr. Tambourine Man (1965):
The first record on the first look isn't really prog-related, but when you look closer you'll find some aspects which are quite progressive.
For example, the Byrds first used the electric 12 string guitar and by doing that were (with Bob Dylan) the first musicians to cross folk (sophisticated harmony vocals) and rock music, influencing many proto-prog (Beatles) or prog bands.
Especially the bass guitar and the rhythm electric guitar are well-arranged and collaborate as a rhythm unit, for example in "You Won't Have To Cry" where the faintly-odd metre is underlined by nearly funky chords of bass and electric guitar.
"It's No Use" features jazzy chord progressions (1:10-1:13) which could be described as very progressive, a short bridge in the piece sounds like being influenced by John Coltrane or someone like that.

Turn Turn Turn (1965):
Here, the band made their first step in the direction of mantra/Asian music and thus also proto-psychedelia. Check out the constant backing vocals on "If You're Gone" or the epic/symphonic sound of "He Was A Friend Of Mine" due to rapid 12 string picking (compare with Genesis' Trespass), Hammond organ, interesting harmony vocals and chunking bass guitar; as far as I know, no other popular rock band before gave the bass guitar this prominence; later this should be usual in progressive rock music (Yes or ELP).
Jazz/blues-related walking bass melodies can also be seen in "Lay Down Your Weary Tune".

5D (1966):
The band's first contact to avantgarde and sciencefiction and the first psychedelic album, in a way.
From mighty hymns (title track) to folk songs with exciting string arrangements and/or electric folk attitudes (Wild Mountain Thyme and John Riley) the pop music branch is given a new sound.
The soul/rock rework "Hey Joe" brings the next type of innovation: rapid electric guitar and bass soloing in the background with strong jazz influences, just like the Coltrane- or Asian music-influenced psychedelic solos and breaks in "Eight Miles High", "What's Happening?" the single "Why" and "I See You" with frantic trills and odd rhythms - as such "Eight Miles High" and "Why" have already been recorded in late 1965 (!) and can be heard in the bonus tracks section.  "Captain Soul" is a blues improvisation piece.
"Mr. Spaceman" combines country and rock music while the "Lear Jet Song" uses sound effects of planes before any other rock band did so (the album was recorded before the Beatles' Revolver).
The outtake "Psychodrama City" may actually not be included in my argumentation, but this piece is nearly undescribable with its hectic sounds and strange harmonies.

Younger Than Yesterday (1967)

Here, nearly every song has its innovations.  "So You Wanna..." features a ska brass section and lyrics criticizing hypes around commercially orientated bands (The Monkees),  "CTA102" includes sound effects with synthesizers and oscillators and science-fiction-orientated lyrics while David Crosby composes a somber/psychedelic song (Everybody Has Been Burned), a track with frantic crying vocals and backwards-played guitars (Mind Gardens) and the psychfolk-tune "Renaissance Fair".
Chris Hillman wrote a drug-influenced song (Thoughts and Words) and some country pieces while "Time Between" features (as far as I know) the technical innovation of the B bender on his guitar.

Notorious Byrd Brothers (1967)

Apart from the features of the previous album we find Moog synthesizer pieces here (Moog Raga, Space Odyssey),  the drone-based song "Change is Now" (with alternating country/psych parts),  baroque influences in "Get To You" and "Old John Robertson" with string quartets.  "Tribal Gathering" is written in a 5/4 measure and also features strange chord progressions.
Other sound effects:  guns in "Draft Morning", dolphn sounds imitated by a guitar in "Dolphin's Smile".

Afterwards the band went over to country music although the album "Dr. Byrds & Mr. Hyde" still featured interesting effects;  "Untitled/Unissued" is a live album where some improvisations are also at least prog-related.




Edited by Einsetumadur - April 12 2010 at 13:21

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Is "Eight Miles High" by the Byrds prog? By rockandrail, September 23 2005 at 10:55

8

209

By valravennz September 27 2005 at 01:57

earlyprog wrote: This is the second time in a short while you suggest them   http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=55002&KW=byrds&PID=3120843#3120843   Everything that needed to be said was said in that threat or...?   As concluded there, they would be a great addition to proto-prog (perhaps my mis-interpretation?).

Einsetumadur wrote: The denomination Proto Prog comes from the combination of two words, Proto from the Greek The earliest,. and Prog which as we know is a short term for Progressive Rock, so as it's name clearly indicates, refers to the earliest form of Progressive Rock or Progressive Rock in embryonary state. Embryonary state. Yep, this is the case.

1. The Byrds are famous, so very few here ignore they work, they are not an obscure band that could have been lost in time.
2. They have been suggested several times
3. They been debated several times
4. Three Administrators (who decide PP bands said no)
5. Almost no (if any) Prog site has them included and that's also a reference
6. They were rejected every time.

Then why inisist in adding a band that may or may not influenced Prog, when there are hundreds of full Progressive Rock bands still waiting to be added?

Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - April 12 2010 at 14:50

^ Why? It's not like there's someone rushing to add the Byrds or Bob Dylan just because someone is suggesting them. 

Ivan didn't rejected them, Proto Prog and Prog Related are approved or rejected exclusively  by the Administrators, I only have 25% of decision in Symphonic bands and no decision in Proto Prog, so whoever told you I rejected them is wrong.

Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - April 12 2010 at 16:04

Folk-rock -> psychedelic-rock -> raga-rock -> space-rock -> electronica -> country-rock. Innovative use of Moog synthesizer, studio techniques, sci-fi lyrics... not progressive?

It's complete rubbish that too popular bands cannot be added

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote: Ivan didn't rejected them, Proto Prog and Prog Related are approved or rejected exclusively  by the Administrators, I only have 25% of decision in Symphonic bands and no decision in Proto Prog, so whoever told you I rejected them is wrong.   Jimmy_row, clarke_2001, Alberto Munoz, Seyo, earlyprog and jammun  don't have decision in Proto Prog either.   If they were suggested four times and not added..............They were rejected, that's the only conclusion, the system is simple, if a band ois accepted by PR or PP, it's informed, if four previous threads dies and even locked, they were not accepted.   Iván

Alberto Muñoz wrote: Ivan_Melgar_M wrote: Ivan didn't rejected them, Proto Prog and Prog Related are approved or rejected exclusively  by the Administrators, I only have 25% of decision in Symphonic bands and no decision in Proto Prog, so whoever told you I rejected them is wrong.   Jimmy_row, clarke_2001, Alberto Munoz, Seyo, earlyprog and jammun  don't have decision in Proto Prog either.   If they were suggested four times and not added..............They were rejected, that's the only conclusion, the system is simple, if a band ois accepted by PR or PP, it's informed, if four previous threads dies and even locked, they were not accepted.   Iván   Thanks Ivan for reminding us that we have no vote in PP...

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote: The problem is that to avoid the addition of bands with small relation were added anthe administrators decided to be more careful with wich bands should be added, so that ONLY bands that DIRECTLY and BEYOND doubt influenced Progressive Rock were added

Most likely the oldest  bands not added are small forghotten ones, because people hardly know them, I remember adding "Sonic Youth" (Despite my dislike for Phil Collins) because they were a band that had clear Proto Prog characteristics and was approved by the administrators..

I would be glad if you could explain what you mean because there I feel there's a contradiction.

In the first sentence you argue that a proto prog band which can be added must have influenced progressive rock.

In the second sentence you argue that proto prog bands can be added when they are small and forgotten - although Sonic Youth surely weren't an influential band in prog history.

What I believe is that there is no clear rule of which band may be introduced and which not - something that you also admit.

"Rely in our experience" is not a bit objective or logical and I don't know why one should "live with these conditions" because there allegedly is no solution.
The solution is that an administrator writes down a clear definition and the decisions are made by comparing a band to these standards.


A question out of interest:  how many albums do you know by The Byrds?


Anyway...
What I suggest:

Is it possible to add a poll where everyone can decide: Byrds Yes or No?
Before participating everyone should have listened to 2 or 3 Youtube videos of the Byrds and should have read the few lines about the band which I have written about it.

I know: there has been a poll already, but I believe that The Byrds aren't as popular as one would believe them to be.  When I read things like ""Ballad of Easy Rider" is just folk => reject" or even opinions like ""Eight Miles High" is perfect prog => include" I know that there could be some details missing to really understand this band and have a fair and adequate opinion about it.