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Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down
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Points: 19557 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 10 2010 at 19:22
Originally posted by akamaisondufromage akamaisondufromage wrote:

 
It does appear as if the cover up of abuse in the Catholic Church has been institutional.  And members of the church trusted priests with their children you wouldn't trust a soldier in the same way with your child.
 
The Church covered this abuse not the religion. 
 
Institutional?
 
With 98% of priests falsly accused and never publuished their innocense...Don't you believe the Church has to be extremely careful?
 
Now covered?
  1. Have you ever known about the 240 convicted pastors of a Church that represents only 0.7% of the people in USA?
  2. Don't you believe that kids should trust in their parents more than in priests and parents are the first pedophiles?
  3. Don't you believe that hundreds of times more pedophile teachers (who you trust your kids) is not covering?
  4. Don't you believe hat some Mormon sects that admit 65 years men marry with multiple 15 years girls, in a form of unofficial poligamy is real covering?
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    Perhaps the most famous polygamist communities are Colorado City, Arizona, just south of the Utah border, and its neighboring town of Hildale, Utah.  These two towns, formerly known as Short Creek, were raided by the National Guard in the 1950s in what is still referred to by local residents as "The Raid," and many men here were sent to prison.  Images of families being torn apart resulted in a public relations disaster for the state of Utah and no major arrests of "poligs" have occurred since then.  There was a made-for-TV movie about this incident many years ago called, "Child Bride of Short Creek" which starred a very young Helen Hunt, long before she was Mad About You.  By the way, after the men were released from prison several years later, they returned to Colorado City and quietly resumed their ultra-orthodox beliefs, including the practice of polygamy.  I once asked a local National Park ranger if there were still polygamists there and she avoided a direct response to my question by saying, "If you drive through Colorado City, you'll see a lot of big houses."  

     

    If you drive through Colorado City, as I did a few years ago, you'll also see a lot of women wearing long dresses and bonnets and men with long-sleeved shirts and hats, dressed just as their ancestors did a hundred years ago.  I've tried to photograph them, but they're quite suspicious of outsiders, especially I guess, outsiders like me toting big cameras.  Yes, polygamy is alive and well in Utah, and estimates are that between 30,000 and 75,000 people live in polygamist families in Utah today (mostly in rural areas), representing about 1 to 2 percent of the state's population.  From what I've seen, I don't dispute those estimates. http://www.delsjourney.com/close-ups/us/travels_sw/mormons_and_polygamy.htm

    This is institutional poligamy and pedophilia.

    Please, the Catholic Church has it's sins, but people see the straw in the eye of their enemy bit not the log in front of their eyes.

    Iván
            
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Points: 17493 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 10 2010 at 23:41
Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:


Kinda funny really, if you think about it...Here in America, some Muslims destroyed our buildings and murdered thousands of people, and yet you get criticized severely for even insinuating that the Islamic religion is a cover for violent acts. 


I wouldn't criticize you really...

Listen, it's not the religion that encourages or covers up child abuse. Of that we're clear. My main problem if you check my first post has always been Ratzinger probably involved in the cover up and none even thinking of any consequences for the guy...

If Ratzinger was American and lived here, they would've already named this whole scandal Vaticangate or Ratzingergate or Childgate. Ja.

I don't accuse the religion of pedophilia. I accuse important members of the church that direct it of covering it up.
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Points: 65760 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 10 2010 at 23:44
Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:


Kinda funny really, if you think about it...Here in America, some Muslims destroyed our buildings and murdered thousands of people, and yet you get criticized severely for even insinuating that the Islamic religion is a cover for violent acts. 


I wouldn't criticize you really...

Listen, it's not the religion that encourages or covers up child abuse. Of that we're clear. My main problem if you check my first post has always been Ratzinger probably involved in the cover up and none even thinking of any consequences for the guy...

If Ratzinger was American and lived here, they would've already named this whole scandal Vaticangate or Ratzingergate or Childgate. Ja.

I don't accuse the religion of pedophilia. I accuse important members of the church that direct it of covering it up.

But like many people have said, they may have legitimate reasons for "covering it up", I can't really accuse them of it unless I knew what their intentions are/were in doing so.
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Points: 19557 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 10 2010 at 23:50
Originally posted by The T The T wrote:


Listen, it's not the religion that encourages or covers up child abuse. Of that we're clear. My main problem if you check my first post has always been Ratzinger 1.- probably involved in the cover up and none even thinking of any consequences for the guy...

2.- If Ratzinger was American and lived here, they would've already named this whole scandal Vaticangate or Ratzingergate or Childgate. Ja.

I don't accuse the religion of pedophilia. I accuse important members of the church that direct it of covering it up.
  1. Probably is not enough to judge any person and you are already asking consequences...I know you are a thoinking person but you are already asking for a witch hunt without evidence, what can you expect froom the press or even religious sects like the Westboro Baptist Church or hate sites as .Jesus is Savior  who are having a party?
  2. Yes, that's the problem with USA, the press accuses without certitude and never ask excuses if they are wrong (something usually happens).

As long as press puts names to scandals without being sure without any reasonable doubt, the institutions will have to protect their members against unfair trials....The press causes this problem.

What's the chance of a priest receiving a fair trial if the press already calls it Vaticangate?
 
Of course if you are afamous football player and your name is OJ Simpson, you will be declared innocent despite there was no doubt of the crime.
 
Iván


Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - April 11 2010 at 00:52
            
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Points: 6795 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 11 2010 at 00:10
Originally posted by Finnforest Finnforest wrote:

Abuse of any innocent, by any person, in any setting, is wrong and should be dealt with harshly.  I'm pro death penalty so don't think I'm kidding. 

At the same time, lawyers and those who hate the Church are loving this, and using it to perpetuate their own self interest, which is disgusting in its own way.  For every foul act committed by a priest, the Catholic church has 100,000 little  acts of compassion and selflessness, given from nuns and priests, church members, to each other, enriching each others spiritual lives and daily lives.  Much more good than bad if you look at the net result.   

For those really interested in protecting children and killing the human predators in society, I'm with you.  For those interested in simply sliming the entire faith community for the actions of a few, you repulse me. 
Amen.
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Points: 16715 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 11 2010 at 00:50
Originally posted by Garion81 Garion81 wrote:

 Just for the record I have one daughter raped by another teenager, another possibly molested or raped after being drugged (she doesn't remember what happened but tested positive for the date rape drug)  and now a niece raped and murdered.
Wow, of course I knew about your niece, but I didn't know the rest of your family was so unlucky. I'll just concede the argument because while I think you're being emotional, you have good reasons to be emotional! So I'll let it be.
Quote
And as for your signature quote College BB at Michigan was ruined becasue of the Fab 5 and the coach there.  Not all college BB is the same.  Well maybe wherever John Callipari coaches. Wink

I don't actually care about basketball, I just thought it was a nice quote that reinforces my distaste for televised sports. :P


Edited by Henry Plainview - April 11 2010 at 00:50
if you own a sodastream i hate you
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Points: 65760 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 11 2010 at 00:53
I'm surprised it took that long for pedobear to pop up.
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Points: 7028 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 11 2010 at 02:21
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Originally posted by The T The T wrote:


Listen, it's not the religion that encourages or covers up child abuse. Of that we're clear. My main problem if you check my first post has always been Ratzinger 1.- probably involved in the cover up and none even thinking of any consequences for the guy...

2.- If Ratzinger was American and lived here, they would've already named this whole scandal Vaticangate or Ratzingergate or Childgate. Ja.

I don't accuse the religion of pedophilia. I accuse important members of the church that direct it of covering it up.
  1. Probably is not enough to judge any person and you are already asking consequences...I know you are a thoinking person but you are already asking for a witch hunt without evidence, what can you expect froom the press or even religious sects like the Westboro Baptist Church or hate sites as .Jesus is Savior  who are having a party?
  2. Yes, that's the problem with USA, the press accuses without certitude and never ask excuses if they are wrong (something usually happens).

As long as press puts names to scandals without being sure without any reasonable doubt, the institutions will have to protect their members against unfair trials....The press causes this problem.

What's the chance of a priest receiving a fair trial if the press already calls it Vaticangate?
 
Of course if you are afamous football player and your name is OJ Simpson, you will be declared innocent despite there was no doubt of the crime.
 
Iván
Ivan
 
With respect, for once leave lawyer type facts alone. The Catholic Church must hang it's head in shame and no amount of  " Evidence"  towards parents, teachers etc will polish or divert the cursed stain the Catholic Church now has to overcome.
 
Sorry but we live in an immediate media based world and if I think 'Catholic'...I immediately flinch associating Catholicism with sodomy and child abuse ( And I am 48 years old can you imagine what kids think googling away at the age of 16 and up?). That Church has a long time to overcome any sceptisism from the public at large. Start a seperate thread with evidence against parents, teachers etc. but you will not undo the damage already done by a priesthood where nominated individuals hide and lurk behind Christ and God.An eternity of Hell is too short for these church representatives.
 
Perception of the Catholic Church will take hundreds of years to heal.
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Points: 7028 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 11 2010 at 02:45
Originally posted by CinemaZebra CinemaZebra wrote:

Originally posted by Finnforest Finnforest wrote:

Abuse of any innocent, by any person, in any setting, is wrong and should be dealt with harshly.  I'm pro death penalty so don't think I'm kidding. 

At the same time, lawyers and those who hate the Church are loving this, and using it to perpetuate their own self interest, which is disgusting in its own way.  For every foul act committed by a priest, the Catholic church has 100,000 little  acts of compassion and selflessness, given from nuns and priests, church members, to each other, enriching each others spiritual lives and daily lives.  Much more good than bad if you look at the net result.   

For those really interested in protecting children and killing the human predators in society, I'm with you.  For those interested in simply sliming the entire faith community for the actions of a few, you repulse me. 
Amen.
Yes I agree this is absolutely true but we are focussing on child abuse here not the honest good delivered by dedicated members of the Church.
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Points: 29630 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 11 2010 at 05:31
Considering the pedophile priest cover up, Fred Phelps and company, Islamic fundamentalism, etc.  I think I will be forgiven for moving beyond religion...

Edited by Slartibartfast - April 11 2010 at 05:31
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Points: 6898 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 11 2010 at 10:25
Richard Dawkins is one of my  heroes next to Buzz Buerling and Charles Bukowski.
 Not a big fan of John Lennon but I think he hit the nail on the head with the line "and no religion too". I think that people are just coming to their senses. The Roman Catholic Church has been in decline here in Québec for the past 30-40 years. There are literally a few hundred vacant churches on the Island of Montréal alone.

Seriously, can anyone here tell me how you explain this mess to a child? I sure as hell don't have an explanation.
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Points: 19557 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 11 2010 at 10:49
Originally posted by Chris S Chris S wrote:

With respect, for once leave lawyer type facts alone. The Catholic Church must hang it's head in shame and no amount of  " Evidence"  towards parents, teachers etc will polish or divert the cursed stain the Catholic Church now has to overcome.
 
Sorry but we live in an immediate media based world and if I think 'Catholic'...I immediately flinch associating Catholicism with sodomy and child abuse ( And I am 48 years old can you imagine what kids think googling away at the age of 16 and up?). That Church has a long time to overcome any sceptisism from the public at large. Start a seperate thread with evidence against parents, teachers etc. but you will not undo the damage already done by a priesthood where nominated individuals hide and lurk behind Christ and God.An eternity of Hell is too short for these church representatives.
 
Perception of the Catholic Church will take hundreds of years to heal.
Originally posted by Chris S Chris S wrote:

Yes I agree this is absolutely true but we are focussing on child abuse here not the honest good delivered by dedicated members of the Church.
 
Chris, less than 1% of the priests ahve been accused and less than 2% of the accused have been convicted...One case is wrong, but the hatered against Catholic Church is abusive.
 
You take a Church  with 0.7% of representation in USA with 240 cases...That's huge, you take 47% of the parents..Nobody says a word, you take teachers, partners, office rape and nobody says a word.
 
Even somehonest Protestant sites (there are a lot), say that Catholoic Church is far behind any other religious group in percentages.
 
But the problem is that the Catholic Church has grown 11% in USA with 69,135,254 members (A normally Protestant nation) and is now by large the biggest Christian organization and has gained more hatred.
 
Yes, hang the guilyty, but don't focus in one Chyurch (the one with less problems), focus in everybody.
 
I guess nobody knew about the 251 of the Fundamentalist Bible Pastors CONVICTED that represent 0.7% of Christianism (According to the honest Protestant site that I quoted) until it was here, that's huge.
 
But always priests will be the focus oof attention.
 
Iván
            
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Points: 29630 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 11 2010 at 10:57

Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Points: 11979 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 11 2010 at 11:22
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article7094310.ece
Quote Dawkins and Hitchens believe the Pope would be unable to claim diplomatic immunity from arrest because, although his tour is categorised as a state visit, he is not the head of a state recognised by the United Nations.

They have commissioned the barrister Geoffrey Robertson and Mark Stephens, a solicitor, to present a justification for legal action.

The lawyers believe they can ask the Crown Prosecution Service to initiate criminal proceedings against the Pope, launch their own civil action against him or refer his case to the International Criminal Court.

Dawkins, author of The God Delusion, said: “This is a man whose first instinct when his priests are caught with their pants down is to cover up the scandal and damn the young victims to silence.”

Hitchens, author of God Is Not Great, said: “This man is not above or outside the law. The institutionalised concealment of child rape is a crime under any law and demands not private ceremonies of repentance or church-funded payoffs, but justice and punishment.


I will be very pleased if he doesn't come but am not sure about this move.
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Points: 11979 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 11 2010 at 11:27
With regard to an earlier post discussing professions with the most instances of child abuse I hope that  people know that in over 75% of cases the perpetrator is a family member or a friend of the family, at least in the UK it is. I am certain that in some cases "local priest" would qualify as "friend of the family" in a way that other professions wouldnt. Certainly doctors no longer tend to be in that role, though they once were.

 My best mate is a senior Child Protection Officer and he always worries when the media focuses on Pedophile scare stories because the enemy is within and these stories suggest otherwise.
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Points: 10672 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 11 2010 at 11:43
As a male music teacher who works with young teens and younger kids too, I am suspect number one. I have caught parents using different means to spy on me etc. I don't blame them and never say a word of protest when I catch them peeking through a window or hiding behind a door jam. It's just part of my job and I am OK with that.

On a somewhat related note, are 'scary' pictures of the pope really helping this be a serious conversation?

Edited by Easy Money - April 11 2010 at 12:29
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Points: 6898 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 11 2010 at 11:45
Well... no I better not say what I was going to say. I think I might be walking on this ice on this thread already.
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Points: 19557 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 11 2010 at 12:00
Originally posted by Tony R Tony R wrote:

With regard to an earlier post discussing professions with the most instances of child abuse I hope that  people know that in over 75% of cases the perpetrator is a family member or a friend of the family, at least in the UK it is. I am certain that in some cases "local priest" would qualify as "friend of the family" in a way that other professions wouldnt. Certainly doctors no longer tend to be in that role, though they once were.

 My best mate is a senior Child Protection Officer and he always worries when the media focuses on Pedophile scare stories because the enemy is within and these stories suggest otherwise.


 
Here in some towns of the Peruvian mountains occurs a very tragic tradition, due to the fact that this families live ina one or two rooms houses (huts to be precise), the first sexual relation of a daughter is with the father, and when the mother discovers it, instead of protecting her daughter, throws her out of the house to avoid compettition.
 
That is really tragic, because the "lucky" girls end like maids in a house where respected, but the majority end as prostitutes.
 
We just have a scandal here in the town of Cajamarca (1,000 Kms from Lima), a school teacher previously accused of raping a minor female , was set free on bail, and found some time later drinking with minors and his mother fu**er lawyer in a bar late at night, with justice like this, we are fried. ( http://www.elregionalcajamarca.com/2010/02/22/profesor-violador-de-juan-xxiii-es-detenido-con-menores-bebiendo-licor/  It's in Spanish)
 
In the  University I was witness of a case of a CIVIL teacher who made us give the replacement exams in his office, one by one, a girl entered and we heard shouts and screams, she got a 20/20 grade and no problem happened (apparently) because some students talked and the proffessor was thrown out of the university being that the girl refused to present charges to send him to jail.
 
Recently a list of 30 rapist teachers has been presented, most of them will have to visit jail between 4 and 30 years depending on the case. (It's in Spanish http://peru21.pe/noticia/230524/difunden-lista-profesores-sentenciados-violacion-sexual butsome could understand)
 
Here the civil teachers are the worst problem, but I wouldn't dareto accuse the institution of education fopr this, I'm sure a very small minority can't affect the honeor of excellent proffessors.
 
Iván


Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - April 11 2010 at 12:09
            
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Points: 32550 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 11 2010 at 12:24
One reason why I support segregation of gender in schools. 

Let the women teach the girls and the men teach the boys.  Yes I am aware that will not completely solve the problem, but I think it would reduce it significantly in schools, and it would also be much harder to prove a false accusation.

And let's be real.

We love our children, but they are little liars, aren't they?

Once a teacher in the USA has been accused of inappropriately touching a student, it doesn't matter if he is not proven guilty.  His career is effectively over.  Done deal.
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Points: 46838 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 11 2010 at 12:33
well said Robert.
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