A health care question...

Padraic wrote: Gee, thanks.  Always good to see one's country insulted over and over again. Little wonder I barely visit this site anymore.

Edited by The T - April 05 2010 at 23:16

Epignosis wrote: Easy Money wrote: Epignosis wrote: One-quarter of $400,000 a year is still plenty for a family to live on!But one quarter of $40,000 is a huge deal to a family of four. ^ Socialist Just asking people to pay their fair share, that's all!  Whatever that is.

I'm working on the figures now , I'm sure you will find them quite agreeable, if not, our jack-booted goose-stepping government "doctors and nurses" will haul your ass to jail.

Edited by Easy Money - April 05 2010 at 23:30

The T wrote: If Americans love their country so much (as they do) and libertarians are so proud of the country's accomplishments, it should be a goal eliminating that which is laughed about in the rest of the civilized world: America's Health-care system, changing it with something that works and that proves once and for all this IS truly the most prosper, leading nation on earth. Do it out of country's pride! I don't see what national pride can be based in defending corporations and money as the ultimate goal in life (not saying you do this Robert...)

Like all inoculations, yours contains the virus it is designed to eradicate (I suspect you realise this so I probably don't give you sufficient credit ) i.e. the biggest hurdle to change is the denial that we are all culpable to varying degrees when our social systems fail. As you pointed out in an earlier post, those we didn't vote for still represent us (the consent of the governed re the Social Contract).
America only leads the world in vanity about its own perceived accomplishments and were synchronised  'Way-to-go' to become an Olympic event, the rest of us would never even make it to the podium.
(You also appear to call a closed event 'the World Series' ?)

It saddens me to  read in this thread the reactionary parochial naivete of those who contrast say, the 'right to live' with the 'means to live' etc. They clearly wouldn't even get to first base on what it actually means to live.

(and trust me on this), your draconian health care system is not the only aspect of America the rest of the world finds laughable. Given the choice of either right wing conservative or right wing liberal available from the ballot box, I hope your next President is a female called:

T.I.N.A - There Is No Alternative

The T wrote: Epignosis wrote: The T wrote: ^Good twisting around everything there Robert ... Somehow we agree in the last sentence almost completely. With the exception that my first post deals with a problem that many people go through (ok, we can agree many people lose mail too) but that ultimately may be a hair more important ..... (not MY particular case... ALL health-related cases).  I don't see how I twisted anything, and no one has shown me how I have. You use my first post about health care to validate the argument that your lost-mail problem is an anecdote irrelevant in the big scheme of things, yet you boldened and CAPSIZED that entire post using that anecdote precisely as hard evidence against government-run institutions... T...you really missed the whole point of the capitalizing thing (not "capsizing."  Your computer is still upright, yes?  )  I was making a case against anecdotes driving policy, not using my anecdote as "hard evidence" against government-run institutions.  It was an illustration regarding anecdotal backlashes, not government policy. The funny thing is, I don't believe an impoverished person must die or suffer much due to a health-related issue.  As a country, I think we are beyond that.   So should be everyone else.  No one ever f**king talks of alternatives. Especially not those in the GOP  Have you read what I've said?  No one has proposed the moderate, localized health care as I've mentioned.  Both parties have failed (and don't say "well, the GOP had 8 years"...Clinton had 8 years too, and health care reform was a big priority then ). I think "grown-ups" should be a little beyond partisan politics like "Democrats vs GOP."  If you want to just play shirts and skins, then I'm not so sure you really care about issues. It's always "federal taxes" this and "de-regulation" that. It is something that exists in other countries. if a better way is found, it has to be explained first. But none will find anything based on NO NO and NO as only political principle Please. I am a heavy drinker, right?  I buy beer.  You'll probably need a lot of health care in the future I don't buy jewelry or video games much.  Nor do I smoke.  Nor do I travel much.  I digress... Thanks.  And when I do, I expect to pay for it.  Not bitch about it. Suppose the local governments set up life-saving health care systems based on consumption taxes instead of income taxes?  Then choice is more or less preserved, and people won't be impoverished for breaking an arm. That IS an idea, or the start of one. Sadly, none ever proposed anything but a big gigantic NO So there you have it.  Representative democracy isn't very representative, is it?  Shirts and skins forever... If Americans love their country so much (as they do) and libertarians are so proud of the country's accomplishments, it should be a goal eliminating that which is laughed about in the rest of the civilized world: America's Health-care system, changing it with something that works and that proves once and for all this IS truly the most prosper, leading nation on earth. Do it out of country's pride! I don't see what national pride can be based in defending corporations and money as the ultimate goal in life (not saying you do this Robert...) 1. You haven't defined "works." 2. International peer pressure doesn't sway my opinions (this isn't high school, for God's sake). 3. No one said money is the ultimate goal in life.  But if I am going to do a job, I expect to be compensated unless I agree not to be.  No one is f**king fixing my computer for free, and this little machine is how I make my living to feed my family.

Epignosis wrote: Padraic wrote: The T wrote: Maybe it did. Maybe you had a poor experience. I don't know what you do know or don't know, but again, efficiency shouldn't be the main complain against a central government like the USA's because it is far more efficient than it is given credit for.  It should be one of the primary complaints! I pay a lot of money in taxes - shouldn't demanding it be used efficiently be the least I can ask for? How about congressmen and senators and the President lead the way in accepting 75% pay cuts?  One-quarter of $400,000 a year is still plenty for a family to live on! But one quarter of $40,000 is a huge deal to a family of four.

Padraic wrote: The T wrote: Maybe it did. Maybe you had a poor experience. I don't know what you do know or don't know, but again, efficiency shouldn't be the main complain against a central government like the USA's because it is far more efficient than it is given credit for.  It should be one of the primary complaints! I pay a lot of money in taxes - shouldn't demanding it be used efficiently be the least I can ask for?

How about congressmen and senators and the President lead the way in accepting 75% pay cuts? 

One-quarter of $400,000 a year is still plenty for a family to live on!

But one quarter of $40,000 is a huge deal to a family of four.

The T wrote: ^Good twisting around everything there Robert ... Somehow we agree in the last sentence almost completely. With the exception that my first post deals with a problem that many people go through (ok, we can agree many people lose mail too) but that ultimately may be a hair more important ..... (not MY particular case... ALL health-related cases).

I don't see how I twisted anything, and no one has shown me how I have.

The funny thing is, I don't believe an impoverished person must die or suffer much due to a health-related issue.  As a country, I think we are beyond that. 

No one ever f**king talks of alternatives.

It's always "federal taxes" this and "de-regulation" that.

Please.

I am a heavy drinker, right?  I buy beer.  I don't buy jewelry or video games much.  Nor do I smoke.  Nor do I travel much.  I digress...

Suppose the local governments set up life-saving health care systems based on consumption taxes instead of income taxes?  Then choice is more or less preserved, and people won't be impoverished for breaking an arm.

The T wrote: Epignosis wrote: The T wrote: Padraic wrote: Easy Money wrote: Padraic wrote: Easy Money wrote: Yes, and our brave new medical world will have needles and thermometers and crazy trick reclining beds and drugs and lots of other neat stuff made by private companies, but calling the shots will be our elected officials headed by our Commander-in-Chief, the same folks who call the shots in the military. Sound great!   What could possibly go wrong? Who do you propose would do a better job and has a proven track record to back it up. No, you're right.  The federal government is the very quintessence of efficiency and excellence. Proven track record of doing what? Yes. The federal government is quite efficient. Obviously, again, not being able to compare one situation to another hurts the perspective.  You have no idea how efficient this government is.  It seems people here have been spoiled with having things done their way and right away for too long....  Well, let's see... To turn the spirit of the OP upside-down... I SOLD A PACKAGE OF BULLETIN BOARDS TO A LADY IN CALIFORNIA, AND WHEN WE SENT IT VIA THE UNITED STATES POSTAL SERVICE, SHE NEVER GOT IT!  WHEN I ASKED ABOUT THE PACKAGE, THEY WERE NO HELP, AND I WAS TOLD I SHOULD HAVE BOUGHT THE INSURANCE!  ANYWAY, WE HAD TO REFUND THE BUYER'S MONEY.  WE GOT A LETTER AND THE DESTROYED PACKAGE ABOUT FOUR MONTHS LATER TELLING US WE COULD WRITE A LETTER OF COMPLAINT IF WE WANTED.  WE WOULD HAVE DONE THAT, BUT WE HAD LITTLE CONFIDENCE THAT SUCH A COMPLAINT WOULD EVER REACH THE POSTMASTER GENERAL. Now shouldn't private companies run the mail system?  Funny. THE SAME PROBLEM (IN CAPS AND ALL) HAPPENED TO MY SISTER SENDING A PACKAGE FROM GERMANY,.... USING DHL, A GREAT PRIVATE CORPORATION!!! OH, AND IT HAPPENED TO ME WITH A STUPID PACKAGE CONTAINING IRRELEVANT CDS (YES, PROG CDS) WITH THE VERY-PRIVATE FEDEX!!!!!! This doesn't prove anything. CAPS OR NO CAPS.

Yes, it does prove something.  It proves this

The T wrote: Today my mother, a 60 year old woman of normal size and weight, was denied insurance by another insurance company. In the letter explaining the decision, they said it was because she has gastritis and some other relatively minor stomach conditions.

doesn't mean we are necessarily justified in calling for federal intervention.

We might be, but I don't believe we are here.  To be blunt: Anecdotal evidence does not necessarily mean we should make a policy change, no matter how angry or hurt it makes us.


Edited by Epignosis - April 05 2010 at 21:02

Epignosis wrote: Easy Money wrote: I have no idea Pat, the scary thing is, there is only one way to find out. Since this is the only chance at an alternative plan we are going to get, I'm willing to take my chances. This didn't have to be the only chance at an alternative plan we would get.  It's just people like the red vs blue sh*t.  It's pretty.  f**kin' makes purple an all.

It didn't have to be, but as it turned out, it did.
It would have been great if people would have proposed brilliant workable ideas from any side of the political spectrum, but nobody did that, at least not in a way that was very visible, believable or agressive.

Epignosis wrote: Equality 7-2521 wrote: Well duh of course they should. But that's probably not your actual point.  I made 4.129 points in that post.  See if you can count them all.