A health care question...

The T wrote: ^Good twisting around everything there Robert ... Somehow we agree in the last sentence almost completely. With the exception that my first post deals with a problem that many people go through (ok, we can agree many people lose mail too) but that ultimately may be a hair more important ..... (not MY particular case... ALL health-related cases).

I don't see how I twisted anything, and no one has shown me how I have.

The funny thing is, I don't believe an impoverished person must die or suffer much due to a health-related issue.  As a country, I think we are beyond that. 

No one ever f**king talks of alternatives.

It's always "federal taxes" this and "de-regulation" that.

Please.

I am a heavy drinker, right?  I buy beer.  I don't buy jewelry or video games much.  Nor do I smoke.  Nor do I travel much.  I digress...

Suppose the local governments set up life-saving health care systems based on consumption taxes instead of income taxes?  Then choice is more or less preserved, and people won't be impoverished for breaking an arm.

Padraic wrote: The T wrote: Maybe it did. Maybe you had a poor experience. I don't know what you do know or don't know, but again, efficiency shouldn't be the main complain against a central government like the USA's because it is far more efficient than it is given credit for.  It should be one of the primary complaints! I pay a lot of money in taxes - shouldn't demanding it be used efficiently be the least I can ask for?

How about congressmen and senators and the President lead the way in accepting 75% pay cuts? 

One-quarter of $400,000 a year is still plenty for a family to live on!

But one quarter of $40,000 is a huge deal to a family of four.

Epignosis wrote: Padraic wrote: The T wrote: Maybe it did. Maybe you had a poor experience. I don't know what you do know or don't know, but again, efficiency shouldn't be the main complain against a central government like the USA's because it is far more efficient than it is given credit for.  It should be one of the primary complaints! I pay a lot of money in taxes - shouldn't demanding it be used efficiently be the least I can ask for? How about congressmen and senators and the President lead the way in accepting 75% pay cuts?  One-quarter of $400,000 a year is still plenty for a family to live on! But one quarter of $40,000 is a huge deal to a family of four.

The T wrote: Epignosis wrote: The T wrote: ^Good twisting around everything there Robert ... Somehow we agree in the last sentence almost completely. With the exception that my first post deals with a problem that many people go through (ok, we can agree many people lose mail too) but that ultimately may be a hair more important ..... (not MY particular case... ALL health-related cases).  I don't see how I twisted anything, and no one has shown me how I have. You use my first post about health care to validate the argument that your lost-mail problem is an anecdote irrelevant in the big scheme of things, yet you boldened and CAPSIZED that entire post using that anecdote precisely as hard evidence against government-run institutions... T...you really missed the whole point of the capitalizing thing (not "capsizing."  Your computer is still upright, yes?  )  I was making a case against anecdotes driving policy, not using my anecdote as "hard evidence" against government-run institutions.  It was an illustration regarding anecdotal backlashes, not government policy. The funny thing is, I don't believe an impoverished person must die or suffer much due to a health-related issue.  As a country, I think we are beyond that.   So should be everyone else.  No one ever f**king talks of alternatives. Especially not those in the GOP  Have you read what I've said?  No one has proposed the moderate, localized health care as I've mentioned.  Both parties have failed (and don't say "well, the GOP had 8 years"...Clinton had 8 years too, and health care reform was a big priority then ). I think "grown-ups" should be a little beyond partisan politics like "Democrats vs GOP."  If you want to just play shirts and skins, then I'm not so sure you really care about issues. It's always "federal taxes" this and "de-regulation" that. It is something that exists in other countries. if a better way is found, it has to be explained first. But none will find anything based on NO NO and NO as only political principle Please. I am a heavy drinker, right?  I buy beer.  You'll probably need a lot of health care in the future I don't buy jewelry or video games much.  Nor do I smoke.  Nor do I travel much.  I digress... Thanks.  And when I do, I expect to pay for it.  Not bitch about it. Suppose the local governments set up life-saving health care systems based on consumption taxes instead of income taxes?  Then choice is more or less preserved, and people won't be impoverished for breaking an arm. That IS an idea, or the start of one. Sadly, none ever proposed anything but a big gigantic NO So there you have it.  Representative democracy isn't very representative, is it?  Shirts and skins forever... If Americans love their country so much (as they do) and libertarians are so proud of the country's accomplishments, it should be a goal eliminating that which is laughed about in the rest of the civilized world: America's Health-care system, changing it with something that works and that proves once and for all this IS truly the most prosper, leading nation on earth. Do it out of country's pride! I don't see what national pride can be based in defending corporations and money as the ultimate goal in life (not saying you do this Robert...) 1. You haven't defined "works." 2. International peer pressure doesn't sway my opinions (this isn't high school, for God's sake). 3. No one said money is the ultimate goal in life.  But if I am going to do a job, I expect to be compensated unless I agree not to be.  No one is f**king fixing my computer for free, and this little machine is how I make my living to feed my family.

The T wrote: If Americans love their country so much (as they do) and libertarians are so proud of the country's accomplishments, it should be a goal eliminating that which is laughed about in the rest of the civilized world: America's Health-care system, changing it with something that works and that proves once and for all this IS truly the most prosper, leading nation on earth. Do it out of country's pride! I don't see what national pride can be based in defending corporations and money as the ultimate goal in life (not saying you do this Robert...)

Like all inoculations, yours contains the virus it is designed to eradicate (I suspect you realise this so I probably don't give you sufficient credit ) i.e. the biggest hurdle to change is the denial that we are all culpable to varying degrees when our social systems fail. As you pointed out in an earlier post, those we didn't vote for still represent us (the consent of the governed re the Social Contract).
America only leads the world in vanity about its own perceived accomplishments and were synchronised  'Way-to-go' to become an Olympic event, the rest of us would never even make it to the podium.
(You also appear to call a closed event 'the World Series' ?)

It saddens me to  read in this thread the reactionary parochial naivete of those who contrast say, the 'right to live' with the 'means to live' etc. They clearly wouldn't even get to first base on what it actually means to live.

(and trust me on this), your draconian health care system is not the only aspect of America the rest of the world finds laughable. Given the choice of either right wing conservative or right wing liberal available from the ballot box, I hope your next President is a female called:

T.I.N.A - There Is No Alternative

Epignosis wrote: Easy Money wrote: Epignosis wrote: One-quarter of $400,000 a year is still plenty for a family to live on!But one quarter of $40,000 is a huge deal to a family of four. ^ Socialist Just asking people to pay their fair share, that's all!  Whatever that is.

I'm working on the figures now , I'm sure you will find them quite agreeable, if not, our jack-booted goose-stepping government "doctors and nurses" will haul your ass to jail.

Edited by Easy Money - April 05 2010 at 23:30

Padraic wrote: Gee, thanks.  Always good to see one's country insulted over and over again. Little wonder I barely visit this site anymore.

Edited by The T - April 05 2010 at 23:16

The T wrote: Padraic wrote: Gee, thanks.  Always good to see one's country insulted over and over again. Little wonder I barely visit this site anymore. Oh come on every country has its flaws and its virtues... It so happens that health care is not among the latter in the US and it truly is kind of ridiculed outside the borders... There is no perfect country no matter what fanatics say.... Not even Scandinavian countries are perfect and they have all their life-well-being stats very high...  Think of the US as the DT of countries... is the most popular, the biggest, the richest, therefore it's constantly in everybody's mouth...

Yep, but are they progressive ?

ExittheLemming wrote: The T wrote: Padraic wrote: Gee, thanks.  Always good to see one's country insulted over and over again. Little wonder I barely visit this site anymore. Oh come on every country has its flaws and its virtues... It so happens that health care is not among the latter in the US and it truly is kind of ridiculed outside the borders... There is no perfect country no matter what fanatics say.... Not even Scandinavian countries are perfect and they have all their life-well-being stats very high...  Think of the US as the DT of countries... is the most popular, the biggest, the richest, therefore it's constantly in everybody's mouth...  Yep, but are they progressive ?

Padraic wrote: But seriously Teo, try to imagine a thread here, where some other country gets sh*t on that much...it gets locked, the participants reprimanded at minimum.

Well this is a thread about America, right? Obviously that's the country people are going to talk about.

But yes the negativity sometimes goes overboard.