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tamijo View Drop Down
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Points: 4287 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 02 2010 at 13:09
Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

Our sewage system works, I don't have to explain it, I flush the toilet and it works, this is a proven fact.
I have never seen a Libertarian sewage system work because from what I have read on these pages I seriously doubt it would.
A free market will decide who gets sewage and who doesn't? Who or what is going to hook the whole system together into a functioning whole, or is everybody on there own on that one too.
Surely somewhere some libertarian philosopher has tried to explain how this sort of infrastructure is supposed to work out.


The government didn't wire your house, did it?  And do you get electricity from the government?
No way, let Enron rule Thumbs Up 
Prog is whatevey you want it to be. So dont diss other peoples prog, and they wont diss yours
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Points: 29630 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 02 2010 at 15:19

Quotes

"Every day since I signed the reform law, there’s been another poll or headline that said, 
"Nation still divided on health care reform." "Polls haven’t changed yet." Well, yeah. It just 
happened last week!  It’s only been a week! Can you imagine if some of these reporters were 
working on a farm? You’d planted some seeds and they came out the next day and they looked. 
"Nothing’s happened! There’s no crop! We're gonna starve! Oh no! It’s a disaster!" It’s been 
a week, folks. So before we find out if people like health care reform, we should wait to see what 
happens when we actually put it into place! Just a thought."
    -- Obama, setting FOX News straight,     Link
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Equality 7-2521 View Drop Down
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Points: 15784 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 03 2010 at 14:28
Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Originally posted by The Doctor The Doctor wrote:

Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Step 1) There's a desire and need for a sewage system.
Step 2) Wise souls raise money and build the infrastructure necessary.
Step 3) They charge for their service.
Step 4) Investors make a profit
Step 5) Peoples needs for sewage displacement are met.

I think it is all idealism that has never worked in the real world and never will.
Step 1) There's a need for a sewage system
Step 2) Rich people underpay the poor to build the sewage system
Step 3) Rich people overcharge the poor to use the sewage system
Step 4) Rich people get even richer
Step 5) Poor people get even poorer

Strange that doesn't happen with every industry then isn't it?

Oh good Shields.. for all your knowledge about numbers and economic figures, you certainly know jacksh*t about the human being and his insatiable greed.... 



Actually I think I do since my disdain for government power stems much from their greed and my faith in the free market comes from a belief that people are greedy and will seek to maximize profit. We just interpret these things in different ways.
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Points: 10618 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 03 2010 at 14:56
What do you think makes people who work for the government more devious than people who don't work for the government?
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Points: 15784 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 03 2010 at 15:02
I never said anything like that.
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Points: 10618 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 03 2010 at 15:06
You definitely said government power is to be disdained above other forms of power.
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Points: 8543 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 03 2010 at 15:19
^ I think because government uses some of its power to help people in general, in contrast to the every man for himself attitude that some prefer.  Apparently greed when used to help people in general = bad.  Greed when used to further your own selfish interests = good.  Confused
I can understand your anger at me, but what did the horse I rode in on ever do to you?
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Equality 7-2521 View Drop Down
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Points: 15784 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 03 2010 at 15:21
Because people in government only gain power by loss of other people's liberty. This is not a desireable situation. 

The greed involved in the private sector incourages comapnies to maximize profit which is good for the consumer. 

I'm not saying anything about the individual people. Its just the structure that is faulty. Although who can really say that politicians aren't slimier than the average.


Edited by Equality 7-2521 - April 03 2010 at 15:22
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Points: 15784 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 03 2010 at 15:24
Originally posted by The Doctor The Doctor wrote:

^ I think because government uses some of its power to help people in general, in contrast to the every man for himself attitude that some prefer.  Apparently greed when used to help people in general = bad.  Greed when used to further your own selfish interests = good.  Confused

I like how the translation goes from me saying that government should not steal and coerce to help people translates to me saying people should not be helped. 

You know you are a human being with moral obligations. You can't just hand them over to the government and say "People need to be helped. Damn those conservatives for stopping that." 

Put out the effort, put out the money, and help people. Don't offer up other people's freedom to help the needy and think you're some great person for that. The government is not the sole provider of charity. Do something yourself.
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Points: 8543 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 03 2010 at 15:25
Yeah, government's always doing that.  Just like when the government stepped in and eliminated people's liberty to keep other people as chattel.  Angry
 
One man's liberty...
I can understand your anger at me, but what did the horse I rode in on ever do to you?
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Points: 15784 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 03 2010 at 15:29
Nice failure to address what I said and to miss the point completely.

But yes government is always doing that. Government has no money. For any social programs it requires money so it must take money. Therefore its stealing money in any of these programs.
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Points: 8543 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 03 2010 at 15:29
Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Originally posted by The Doctor The Doctor wrote:

^ I think because government uses some of its power to help people in general, in contrast to the every man for himself attitude that some prefer.  Apparently greed when used to help people in general = bad.  Greed when used to further your own selfish interests = good.  Confused

I like how the translation goes from me saying that government should not steal and coerce to help people translates to me saying people should not be helped. 

You know you are a human being with moral obligations. You can't just hand them over to the government and say "People need to be helped. Damn those conservatives for stopping that." 

Put out the effort, put out the money, and help people. Don't offer up other people's freedom to help the needy and think you're some great person for that. The government is not the sole provider of charity. Do something yourself.

 

Ok.  Now I'm curious.  What of those people who do not live up to their moral obligations as a human being to help others, especially when they have the means to do so?  Should those of us in the middle of the social ladder shoulder all of the burden to help our fellow man, while those at the top of the ladder continue to pile up the cash by taking advantage of those at the bottom? 
 
I can understand your anger at me, but what did the horse I rode in on ever do to you?
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Points: 10618 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 03 2010 at 15:30
Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:


Because people in government only gain power by loss of other people's liberty. This is not a desireable situation. 
The greed involved in the private sector incourages comapnies to maximize profit which is good for the consumer. 
I'm not saying anything about the individual people. Its just the structure that is faulty. Although who can really say that politicians aren't slimier than the average.


What is faulty about the structure?
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Points: 15784 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 03 2010 at 15:31
And also you realize I'm not an anarchist and I do recognize the need for government to protect rights. Its ironic that slavery is somehow used against me when I'm the person least supportive of that idea. I never hear anyone else through around the issue of rights or freedom, but somehow I'm the implicit supporter of slavery.
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Points: 15784 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 03 2010 at 15:32
Originally posted by The Doctor The Doctor wrote:

Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Originally posted by The Doctor The Doctor wrote:

^ I think because government uses some of its power to help people in general, in contrast to the every man for himself attitude that some prefer.  Apparently greed when used to help people in general = bad.  Greed when used to further your own selfish interests = good.  Confused

I like how the translation goes from me saying that government should not steal and coerce to help people translates to me saying people should not be helped. 

You know you are a human being with moral obligations. You can't just hand them over to the government and say "People need to be helped. Damn those conservatives for stopping that." 

Put out the effort, put out the money, and help people. Don't offer up other people's freedom to help the needy and think you're some great person for that. The government is not the sole provider of charity. Do something yourself.

 

Ok.  Now I'm curious.  What of those people who do not live up to their moral obligations as a human being to help others, especially when they have the means to do so?  Should those of us in the middle of the social ladder shoulder all of the burden to help our fellow man, while those at the top of the ladder continue to pile up the cash by taking advantage of those at the bottom? 
 

New flash. Not all rich people are rich because they exploit. Get over it. I understand you're mad that you're not rich. I'm also mad about it, but that doesn't make everyone with money evil. Stop being so childish. 

What of those people? Those people are bad people then. End of the story. You can't force people to help others. That's no more moral than letting people suffer. 
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Points: 15784 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 03 2010 at 15:33
Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:


Because people in government only gain power by loss of other people's liberty. This is not a desireable situation. 
The greed involved in the private sector incourages comapnies to maximize profit which is good for the consumer. 
I'm not saying anything about the individual people. Its just the structure that is faulty. Although who can really say that politicians aren't slimier than the average.


What is faulty about the structure?

As I said power for those in government comes at the expense of someone else's liberty. 
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Points: 8543 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 03 2010 at 15:36
Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Originally posted by The Doctor The Doctor wrote:

Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Originally posted by The Doctor The Doctor wrote:

^ I think because government uses some of its power to help people in general, in contrast to the every man for himself attitude that some prefer.  Apparently greed when used to help people in general = bad.  Greed when used to further your own selfish interests = good.  Confused

I like how the translation goes from me saying that government should not steal and coerce to help people translates to me saying people should not be helped. 

You know you are a human being with moral obligations. You can't just hand them over to the government and say "People need to be helped. Damn those conservatives for stopping that." 

Put out the effort, put out the money, and help people. Don't offer up other people's freedom to help the needy and think you're some great person for that. The government is not the sole provider of charity. Do something yourself.

 

Ok.  Now I'm curious.  What of those people who do not live up to their moral obligations as a human being to help others, especially when they have the means to do so?  Should those of us in the middle of the social ladder shoulder all of the burden to help our fellow man, while those at the top of the ladder continue to pile up the cash by taking advantage of those at the bottom? 
 

New flash. Not all rich people are rich because they exploit. Get over it. I understand you're mad that you're not rich. I'm also mad about it, but that doesn't make everyone with money evil. Stop being so childish. 

What of those people? Those people are bad people then. End of the story. You can't force people to help others. That's no more moral than letting people suffer. 

 

Actually, yes you can, and we do to some extent (certainly not enough for my liking though).  And yes it is more moral than letting people suffer.  End of story. 
I can understand your anger at me, but what did the horse I rode in on ever do to you?
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Points: 10618 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 03 2010 at 15:38
Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:


Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:


Because people in government only gain power by loss of other people's liberty. This is not a desireable situation. 
The greed involved in the private sector incourages comapnies to maximize profit which is good for the consumer. 
I'm not saying anything about the individual people. Its just the structure that is faulty. Although who can really say that politicians aren't slimier than the average.


What is faulty about the structure?

As I said power for those in government comes at the expense of someone else's liberty. 

Profit can also come at the expense of someone else's liberty, I know you are uncomfortable with me bringing up slavery and I can see why because it is a prime example of worst case scenario in a profit driven society.
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Points: 8543 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 03 2010 at 15:40
Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:


Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:


Because people in government only gain power by loss of other people's liberty. This is not a desireable situation. 
The greed involved in the private sector incourages comapnies to maximize profit which is good for the consumer. 
I'm not saying anything about the individual people. Its just the structure that is faulty. Although who can really say that politicians aren't slimier than the average.


What is faulty about the structure?

As I said power for those in government comes at the expense of someone else's liberty. 

Profit can also come at the expense of someone else's liberty, I know you are uncomfortable with me bringing up slavery and I can see why because it is a prime example of worst case scenario in a profit driven society.
Too late John.  I already brought it up.  LOL
I can understand your anger at me, but what did the horse I rode in on ever do to you?
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Points: 15784 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 03 2010 at 15:41
Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:


Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:


Because people in government only gain power by loss of other people's liberty. This is not a desireable situation. 
The greed involved in the private sector incourages comapnies to maximize profit which is good for the consumer. 
I'm not saying anything about the individual people. Its just the structure that is faulty. Although who can really say that politicians aren't slimier than the average.


What is faulty about the structure?

As I said power for those in government comes at the expense of someone else's liberty. 

Profit can also come at the expense of someone else's liberty, I know you are uncomfortable with me bringing up slavery and I can see why because it is a prime example of worst case scenario in a profit driven society.

But I'm all for protecting rights above all else so why would that even be brought up? Clearly rights are violated.
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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