A health care question...

Easy Money wrote: Equality 7-2521 wrote: Easy Money wrote: Idealism - 1. the practice of forming or living according to ideals 2. the ability or tendency to see things as they should be rather than as they are. Until one of you utopian idealists can tell me how a libertarian society would set up something as complicated as an infrastructure for sewage disposal, such as we have here in the United Socialist states of America, then I am going to have to come to the conclusion that this idealistic form of government does not work in the real world. If you can handle the sewage question I have plenty more questions for you after that, don't get sleepy on me tonight, we have lots to discuss. Where's the animosity coming from? You act as if I insulted your children.  Before I answer anything could you answer how the government provides for infrastructure? Could you defend your form of government? I understand the advantages you posses by staying on the offensive, but it would be nice to see if you can elaborate on any of your views. I think we have a good sewage system here, it works. A good working sewage system under our government is a reality. Now, answer my question and don't avoid. How would a Libertarian government establish such a infrastructure?

Equality 7-2521 wrote: However you can't answer how government can do the same task in detail. Saying our sewage system works is not an answer.

it may be that EM was speaking of the logistics, bankrolling and national oversight a government can provide, rather than the government building things itself (which they don't in most cases, unless you get the Army Engineers involved).. of course it's preferable to have a skilled and experienced contractor build a sewer or bridge or building, not some Federal building Dept. or Senator's buddies, and better for the general economy

Our sewage system works, I don't have to explain it, I flush the toilet and it works, this is a proven fact.
I have never seen a Libertarian sewage system work because from what I have read on these pages I seriously doubt it would.
A free market will decide who gets sewage and who doesn't? Who or what is going to hook the whole system together into a functioning whole, or is everybody on there own on that one too.
Surely somewhere some libertarian philosopher has tried to explain how this sort of infrastructure is supposed to work out.

Equality 7-2521 wrote: The Doctor wrote: Equality 7-2521 wrote: The Doctor wrote: Equality 7-2521 wrote:    In a free-market society, people have no power to usurp the rights of others. Government on the other hand does.       I'll say it again.    What planet have you been living on?  In a free market society, the strong have absolute power to usurp the rights of the weak.  Government stops (or at least slows down to some degree...although not nearly enough) the preying on the weak (read: poor) by the strong (read: wealthy).  How so?   Let me ask you this...If you think government abuses power, don't you think individuals will do the same thing?  After all, government is made up of individuals, and corporations are mini-governments themselves. Why do you trust corporations when you don't trust governments?    Money equals a certain amount of power.  Take a look at the history of the US prior to FDR stepping in and changing the balance of power a bit between rich and poor.  People forced to work 60 hour weeks or more in unsafe conditions or starve.   Yeah, the free market rules.  Because corporations have the unfortunate position of being reliant on people to willing purchase their goods over another company's. They also are bound by law. Government does not have such competition and is able to codify their abuses. If money equals power, then the government would be the most dangerous entity by your own rule in our country. Not only do they have the ability to limitlessly fund anything, but there's no alternative to them.

Howdy Rob, are you a Libertarian? Can you explain how some of this Libertarian thing is supposed to work and I will direct some questions your way.

The Doctor wrote: Equality 7-2521 wrote: The Doctor wrote: Equality 7-2521 wrote: The Doctor wrote: Equality 7-2521 wrote:    In a free-market society, people have no power to usurp the rights of others. Government on the other hand does.       I'll say it again.    What planet have you been living on?  In a free market society, the strong have absolute power to usurp the rights of the weak.  Government stops (or at least slows down to some degree...although not nearly enough) the preying on the weak (read: poor) by the strong (read: wealthy).  How so?   Let me ask you this...If you think government abuses power, don't you think individuals will do the same thing?  After all, government is made up of individuals, and corporations are mini-governments themselves. Why do you trust corporations when you don't trust governments?    Money equals a certain amount of power.  Take a look at the history of the US prior to FDR stepping in and changing the balance of power a bit between rich and poor.  People forced to work 60 hour weeks or more in unsafe conditions or starve.   Yeah, the free market rules.  Because corporations have the unfortunate position of being reliant on people to willing purchase their goods over another company's. They also are bound by law. Government does not have such competition and is able to codify their abuses. If money equals power, then the government would be the most dangerous entity by your own rule in our country. Not only do they have the ability to limitlessly fund anything, but there's no alternative to them.    Without government there is no law.    And a free market economy, in which government takes a hands off approach to business, there would be no laws for corporations to be bound by.    Case in point, your comment about the "unfortunate" position of corporations.  Without government regulation, corporations would be under no restrictions when it comes to conspiring to set prices, leaving the consumer without any real choice, especially if it is an essential product (heating, food, health care, etc.)

Atavachron wrote: Epignosis wrote: Easy Money wrote: Our sewage system works, I don't have to explain it, I flush the toilet and it works, this is a proven fact. I have never seen a Libertarian sewage system work because from what I have read on these pages I seriously doubt it would. A free market will decide who gets sewage and who doesn't? Who or what is going to hook the whole system together into a functioning whole, or is everybody on there own on that one too. Surely somewhere some libertarian philosopher has tried to explain how this sort of infrastructure is supposed to work out. The government didn't wire your house, did it?  And do you get electricity from the government?  again, it's not that we get electricity from the government [which we don't], it's that the government does what no one else really wants to do, which is something like:  "Okay, we're thrilled you want to generate electricity for a profit, but we're gonna make sure that is what you actually do, that you're not overcharging people and that you're paying your taxes."

Step 1) There's a desire and need for a sewage system.

this is getting a bit 'chicken and egg' .. private enterprise, government, and back again-- 

This is getting a bit annoying from the negativity. This is supposed to be a break from homework, not more frustrating than it.