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Easy Money 
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin
Joined: August 11 2007
Location: Memphis
Status: Offline
Points: 10680
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 Posted: March 25 2010 at 22:55 |
By the way, when did right wingers start doing the 'I'm so offended' routine, I've always found that to be one of the more annoying traits of the so called 'knee jerk liberals'.  (the wink means don't be offended )
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Atavachron
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: September 30 2006
Location: Pearland
Status: Online
Points: 65626
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Posted: March 25 2010 at 22:57 |
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^ knees aren't the only thing liberals jerk, believe me
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15784
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Posted: March 26 2010 at 05:03 |
 The T wrote:
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
Negoba wrote:
I personally don't think a viable health care system can be based on a for-profit formula. |
May I ask based on what?
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I would guess because a profit-based health care will always definitely leave out of the system those who need it the most.
I would guess because in most of the rest of the world it is like that (even if it's private, the profit goal is not present, or is strongly regulated).
I would guess because profiting from health care in a way sounds like profiting from human beings' suffering and it doesn't sound so right.
I would guess... Though maybe, economically, there are other reasons... (for or against) |
I was more interested in Negoba's answers but I guess yours work.
The llama addressed your first point. Your second point isn't a justification. Your third point makes no sense honestly. Health care provides a means to alleviate suffering. They make money of providing a service. How much you suffer has no correlation to their profits.
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15784
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Posted: March 26 2010 at 05:04 |
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Props to the llama for his comments two pages back. I wish I would have been awake to back him up for that.
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Negoba
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 24 2008
Location: Big Muddy
Status: Offline
Points: 5210
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Posted: March 26 2010 at 09:27 |
I kind of described why I think for-profit medicine wouldn't work. The main thing is that when dealing with healthcare, there is a knowledge differential and often urgency issues. These things make it difficult for the consumer to make informed choices so that market forces work the way they're supposed to.
I happen to think basic health care something a civilized society ought to provide. Is it an inate right ? No, but neither are roads or even the police.
To address the T's idea that for profit leaves out those who need it most, the most obvious example is that many people with chronic medical conditions can't work. Few are wealthy enough to afford anything including health care if they can't work.
Now I have people asking me to help them with disability every day (probably two or three a day actually). I help maybe 5% of them. Totally making up numbers, but I would guess that about 30% of the people are truly lazy and trying to get over. (Obviously I think 5% have a legit reason to seek disability). The rest are just looking for something to fill the gap because they can't find work, can't get their health care paid for. They're not really trying to cheat anybody, they're just trying to find relief however they can. Hopefully also obviously, I don't think disability is a viable way out of their troubles.
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You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all.
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The T
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 17493
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Posted: March 26 2010 at 10:51 |
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Another question, and excuse my poor economical skills... Isn't one of the requirements of a free market the freedom of both supplier and demander to choose? Now... what freedom is there to choose or buy (or not) when YOUR LIFE depends on it? Does health care really fit the demand-supply concept?
Edited by The T - March 26 2010 at 10:51
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The T
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 17493
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Posted: March 26 2010 at 16:16 |
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Another question: how does preventive care enter in a purely for-profit model? Let's agree at least in the fact that, with more preventive care, less reactive care will be necessary, and less money spent. But under an insurance model, it just doesn't fit, because insurance covers probable events WHEN they happen, not before. So???
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Slartibartfast
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam
Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
Status: Offline
Points: 29630
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Posted: March 26 2010 at 18:13 |
Look out!!! Cartoon flood. 
Well, it beats escalating quote pyramids, doesn't it?
Edited by Slartibartfast - March 27 2010 at 06:16
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15784
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Posted: March 27 2010 at 22:19 |
Negoba wrote:
I kind of described why I think for-profit medicine wouldn't work. The main thing is that when dealing with healthcare, there is a knowledge differential and often urgency issues. These things make it difficult for the consumer to make informed choices so that market forces work the way they're supposed to.
I happen to think basic health care something a civilized society ought to provide. Is it an inate right ? No, but neither are roads or even the police.
To address the T's idea that for profit leaves out those who need it most, the most obvious example is that many people with chronic medical conditions can't work. Few are wealthy enough to afford anything including health care if they can't work.
Now I have people asking me to help them with disability every day (probably two or three a day actually). I help maybe 5% of them. Totally making up numbers, but I would guess that about 30% of the people are truly lazy and trying to get over. (Obviously I think 5% have a legit reason to seek disability). The rest are just looking for something to fill the gap because they can't find work, can't get their health care paid for. They're not really trying to cheat anybody, they're just trying to find relief however they can. Hopefully also obviously, I don't think disability is a viable way out of their troubles.
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I disagree with your premise that free market pressures don't apply to the health industry. I've seen no reason to think otherwise.
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15784
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Posted: March 27 2010 at 22:30 |
The T wrote:
Another question, and excuse my poor economical skills... Isn't one of the requirements of a free market the freedom of both supplier and demander to choose? Now... what freedom is there to choose or buy (or not) when YOUR LIFE depends on it? Does health care really fit the demand-supply concept?
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Your life depends on buying food, but that still seems to work pretty well with simple supply-demand curves. The reason is that your choice isn't buy health care or die.
Your choices are (were / should be) buy health care from provider A1, buy from provider A2, buy from provider A3, ..., buy from provider An, go without health care out of educated decision making, or go without health care out of necessity. Ignoring the last one you have a fair bit of choices. The thing is that you have substitutes and are not simply buying into one homogenous "health insurance".
The problem with the system now is that you're essentially forced to have health care through your company. In which case you have very little ability to shop for competitive rates, preferred services, and other features.
One thing that people don't want to talk about with this current bill is how much the insurance industries are liking it. They're one of the few industries not taking a huge hit from this bill. They're just salivating at the millions of new customers that are being forced into their service.
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Chris S
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: June 09 2004
Location: Front Range
Status: Offline
Points: 7028
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Posted: March 27 2010 at 22:51 |
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^ How many times do you brush your teeth a day? A Healthcare question......just curious?
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<font color=Brown>Music - The Sound Librarian
...As I venture through the slipstream, between the viaducts in your dreams...[/COLOR]
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ExittheLemming
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 19 2007
Location: Penal Colony
Status: Offline
Points: 11420
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Posted: March 27 2010 at 23:17 |
Chris S wrote:
^ How many times do you brush your teeth a day? A Healthcare question......just curious? |
 ^ Spurious. Cookie-cutter sharks have polyphydont dentition, in which old teeth are shed continually throughout the predator's lifetime, and new ones are rotated into place on a conveyor belt- like structure.
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The Whistler
Prog Reviewer
Joined: August 30 2006
Location: LA, CA
Status: Offline
Points: 7113
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Posted: March 27 2010 at 23:47 |
I would be more impressed if it worked like an escalator.
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"There seem to be quite a large percentage of young American boys out there tonight. A long way from home, eh? Well so are we... Gotta stick together." -I. Anderson
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Finnforest
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: February 03 2007
Location: The Heartland
Status: Offline
Points: 17310
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Posted: March 28 2010 at 17:51 |
Line from a health discussion read elsewhere.... I've said this for years when it comes to the health care debate:
High
quality, affordable, universally available. Pick any two.Maybe we can put all three together. I hope so. It would be nice to think Americans can succeed at this. 
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...that moment you realize you like "Mob Rules" better than "Heaven and Hell"
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Atavachron
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: September 30 2006
Location: Pearland
Status: Online
Points: 65626
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Posted: March 28 2010 at 18:27 |
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well if it's truly 'affordable' then I'd think by definition it would be 'universally available' because regardless of whether your employer offered a plan, you'd be able to get it yourself (whether from a federal single-payer or directly with an insurer).. so if I had to choose, I'd take high quality and affordable and see if universally available doesn't work itself out
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Finnforest
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: February 03 2007
Location: The Heartland
Status: Offline
Points: 17310
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Posted: March 28 2010 at 18:51 |
That would be cool. Though "affordable" to the guy who posed the question, for the purpose of the question, probably means "affordable" to the average US family income, not affordable to every single income level down to minimum wage. I'm just guessing, but the poser would probably say you've went around the spirit of the question there , which you are free to do of course. (And no, I'm not the one who made up the query)
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...that moment you realize you like "Mob Rules" better than "Heaven and Hell"
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Atavachron
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: September 30 2006
Location: Pearland
Status: Online
Points: 65626
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Posted: March 28 2010 at 19:12 |
Finnforest wrote:
I'm just guessing, but the poser would probably say you've went around the spirit of the question there, which you are free to do of course.
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true, and though the question imposes a choice of 2 from 3, I'd
suggest those parameters may be broken to the extent that solving the
problem will involve three-dimensional thinking. In other words
it may be a false choice, a 'trick question' if you will.
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Finnforest
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: February 03 2007
Location: The Heartland
Status: Offline
Points: 17310
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Posted: March 28 2010 at 19:13 |
Yeah. That's the real question. Is the question real? tongue twister
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...that moment you realize you like "Mob Rules" better than "Heaven and Hell"
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Epignosis
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: December 30 2007
Location: Raeford, NC
Status: Offline
Points: 32553
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Posted: March 28 2010 at 19:24 |
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I've had a change of heart this weekend.
HEATH CARE FOR NO ONE.
ABORTIONS FOR EVERYONE.
That is all.
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Finnforest
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: February 03 2007
Location: The Heartland
Status: Offline
Points: 17310
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Posted: March 28 2010 at 19:27 |
Epignosis wrote:
I've had a change of heart this weekend.
HEATH CARE FOR NO ONE.
ABORTIONS FOR EVERYONE.
That is all.
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" I want to have an abortion. But my boyfriend and I are having trouble conceiving." -Sarah Silverman
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...that moment you realize you like "Mob Rules" better than "Heaven and Hell"
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A health care question...
