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Epignosis

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Posted: March 24 2010 at 21:26

Padraic wrote:

Epignosis wrote:

Bill on Fox just asked a Democrat what government entity levies the fine against non-compliant citizens, and the politician gave no direct answer. Confused

That's a dumb politician (shocking).

It's the IRS.

Not my point though.

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Posted: March 24 2010 at 21:27

thellama73 wrote:

^Funny how the massive number of physical threats, acts of vandalism and racist slurs directed towards Republicans doesn't get so much media attention, isn't it

I'm not justifying bad behavior by pointing to other bad behavior, I'm merely pointing out that both sides have violent extremists that don't speak for the vast majority of their party. Only one side gets mentioned in the media though.

yes you're right, there always have been lefty extremists

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Posted: March 24 2010 at 21:27

^^^Extremely well put, Equality.

Edited by thellama73 - March 24 2010 at 21:27

Epignosis

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Posted: March 24 2010 at 21:30

Equality 7-2521 wrote:

The T wrote:

Equality 7-2521 wrote:

I guess that by itself is really out of context. Its just a line of his that's always stuck out to me. In an age when profits and those who make them are demonized I think its always refreshing to reflect on the importance of profit especially as a means of allocating capital.

The quote comes from here, this 1920 publication: http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=9D05E5DA1639E133A2575BC2A9679D946195D6CF

I read it. It's coherent. But what I fail to see is how health care should also fall in this "for profit" spirit. It demands skills, of course. But is there a proper "capitalist" that puts the others to work here? The only capitalist in the health care industry, to give it that name, is the Insurance companies, who are the only ones making a real profit (the doctors have a good standard of living, but nothing compared to the shareholders and ceo's of the Insurance companies). I fail to see health care as a "business", that's all. Of course, for other fields, for other things in economical life, profit is necessary. I'm not a communist please. I'm just a free-market socialist... Wink

Anyway, we should also cut another phrase from Coolidge's words: "they [evil forces](...) claim (...)the denial that man have any obligations toward each other"... In that text the least I see is an apologetic view of heartless individualism....

I think your trouble is that you're viewing health care as a right, and also not distinguishing between care and the means to pay for it. Insurance is a business and people need to realize this. It does not exist so that you can pay for healthcare. It exists to make money, where the particular service provided mitigates health costs. Profit serves as an indication of where to allocate resources to industries, and as a general metric signifies that a company is functioning properly (when the profit is procured through voluntary exchange).

I hesitated posting the article actually because I knew that phrase would be used like that. Don't ever think you posses some sort of moral superiority when you advocate that money should be coercively taken from one group to benefit another. That is hardly fulfilling any sort of obligation or acting selflessly on your part. We certainly have obligations towards each other, but government cannot fulfill them although people certainly try to pass such obligations onto government.

Here's a thought:

Make the position of the President, vice president, senators and representatives voluntary positions. Use the leftover money to fund government spending.

Pig

oh wait, I meant

Ying Yang

no wait, I actually meant this

Pig

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Posted: March 24 2010 at 21:33

^That would be only a couple of million a year. Not enough to cover one tenth of one percent of the budget. Pig

Epignosis

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Posted: March 24 2010 at 21:37

thellama73 wrote:

^That would be only a couple of million a year. Not enough to cover one tenth of one percent of the budget. Pig

And as you may well expect me to say:

"Not the f**king point."

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Padraic

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Posted: March 24 2010 at 21:40

Epignosis wrote:

Padraic wrote:

Epignosis wrote:

Bill on Fox just asked a Democrat what government entity levies the fine against non-compliant citizens, and the politician gave no direct answer. Confused

That's a dumb politician (shocking).

It's the IRS.

Not my point though.

Oh...well I guess your point is either that he didn't read the bill and is truly ignorant, or is purposefully being evasive, even though it's easy for anyone to find out who enforces these mandates.

Equality 7-2521 View Drop Down

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Posted: March 24 2010 at 21:40

To Robby:

Or we could eliminate just about all Federal spending rather than succumb our nation to the fancies of the few elites who can sustain themselves with no income. At least financial backing gives us an illusion of control over the people who represent us.

Edited by Equality 7-2521 - March 24 2010 at 21:41

"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "

jammun

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Posted: March 24 2010 at 21:43

Sigh, as I facetiously explained before, you are fined (presumably by the IRS) for not having health insurance. You can refuse to pay the fine, and assuming the IRS is in charge, you'll go to jail. At which point you will then have free health care, at which point you will be in compliance and released until the next time they audit yer sorry ass. Given that for example COBRA from my company runs about $600 a month, that's a bargain. I would have to imagine they do not have the manpower nor the stomach to audit every citizen monthly.

Can you tell me where we're headin'?
Lincoln County Road or Armageddon.

thellama73 View Drop Down

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Posted: March 24 2010 at 21:45

What I find hilarious is that you cannot actually be sent to jail for not paying the fine. So my question is... why would anyone pay the fine if there are no consequences?

Equality 7-2521 View Drop Down

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Posted: March 24 2010 at 21:45

I believe they're hiring 1600 more agents to do precisely just that.

"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "

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Posted: March 24 2010 at 21:47

thellama73 wrote:

What I find hilarious is that you cannot actually be sent to jail for not paying the fine. So my question is... why would anyone pay the fine if there are no consequences?

Because we have a duty to pay taxes. Its what good citizens do. LOL

"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "

Epignosis

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Posted: March 24 2010 at 21:48

So I refuse and go to jail, where I cost the local government money.

Okay.

Tongue

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Padraic

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Posted: March 24 2010 at 21:49

thellama73 wrote:

What I find hilarious is that you cannot actually be sent to jail for not paying the fine.

Is that true? I imagine the IRS would treat it the same as failure to pay your income taxes.

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Posted: March 24 2010 at 21:50

It is true. It's a provision in the current bill*, but I expect it to be changed once the feds realize no one is paying the fines.

*edit: I should have said law, instead of bill, since it has now been signed by the president.

Edited by thellama73 - March 24 2010 at 21:53

Equality 7-2521 View Drop Down

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Posted: March 24 2010 at 21:51

Epignosis wrote:

So I refuse and go to jail, where I cost the local government money.

Okay.

Tongue

I assume you would go to federal prison?

"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "

jammun

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Posted: March 24 2010 at 21:52

Well that blows my scenario, which is to refuse to pay the fine so that you will then be in compliance. Someone deep in the bowels of the g'ment must have already figured this out. It would be an interesting strain on the legal system to have to process wha?, x million persons per year, for not having health insurance, especially since every one of them is entitled to govenment provided legal representation.

Can you tell me where we're headin'?
Lincoln County Road or Armageddon.

Equality 7-2521 View Drop Down

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Posted: March 24 2010 at 21:54

The government will just sign us all up for their own healthcare to solve that problem. That's the end game anyway.

"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "

Padraic

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Posted: March 24 2010 at 21:55

Some quick googling reveals that the IRS can garnish wages, etc., but it does look like no one will be imprisoned for failing to pay.

Epignosis

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Posted: March 24 2010 at 22:01

Padraic wrote:

Some quick googling reveals that the IRS can garnish wages, etc., but it does look like no one will be imprisoned for failing to pay.

I have no wages to speak of, so jokes on them.

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