A health care question...

jampa17 wrote: thellama73 wrote: The T wrote:   ONE MORE TIME: what have you been smoking? Or is your individualism and selfishness so incredibly strong and overwhelming that you really think when you pay taxes you're being robbed?  Obviously the discussion is useless. Go save more money under your mattress man. Hope it serves you well one day where you're damned sick and nobody lifts a finger to even help you count your goddamn hard-earned money that you so heroically managed to keep off the government's hands....  I think it's interesting that you think me selfish, when I'm not the one who wants to confiscate other people's property and distribute it as I see fit. It is a very easy thing to be generous with other people's money. I want people to be generous with their own money.   jajaaja... so you think this is socialism... it's really funny... so tell us, please, what is the solution for people who are older and don't have money? or children that are too young to work and they have no covering and their parents are poor or unemployed? please, tell me, if your answer is accurate... there will be no injustice anymore in the world...

jampa17 wrote: thellama73 wrote: The T wrote:   ONE MORE TIME: what have you been smoking? Or is your individualism and selfishness so incredibly strong and overwhelming that you really think when you pay taxes you're being robbed?  Obviously the discussion is useless. Go save more money under your mattress man. Hope it serves you well one day where you're damned sick and nobody lifts a finger to even help you count your goddamn hard-earned money that you so heroically managed to keep off the government's hands....  I think it's interesting that you think me selfish, when I'm not the one who wants to confiscate other people's property and distribute it as I see fit. It is a very easy thing to be generous with other people's money. I want people to be generous with their own money.   jajaaja... so you think this is socialism... it's really funny... so tell us, please, what is the solution for people who are older and don't have money? or children that are too young to work and they have no covering and their parents are poor or unemployed? please, tell me, if your answer is accurate... there will be no injustice anymore in the world...

Well, since you asked: It's your responsibility to earn money. No one owes it to you. If you're old and you haven't saved, then I hope you have at least been nice to people. Back in the day, before social security, most old people moved in with their kids. I think that's a good thing. Now, the family structure is falling apart and I think that is the cause of many evils in the world. Additionally, America has an astounding amount of private charity. If people were not taxed through the noses, it would be even more astounding. I think you'll find that we're a pretty compassionate people on an individual level.
The purpose of friends, family and community is to help each other through hard times. Now that the government provides everything, there's less incentive for people to get to know each other and play nice. That's why we've become so isolated and antisocial.
The main point where we disagree is that you should money is a right, and I think it has to be earned. There are obviously cases where it's impossible for someone to earn a living for reasons beyond their control, and it's very sad, but we Americans have always been great about helping these people out of the kindness of our hearts and not because Uncle Sam forces us to.

In a free democratic society like we have in the US, the government is us. We are the government, we are a self-governing nation. The government is not the enemy, it is us, It is made up of people we freely elected. The laws we have were arrived at democratically as well, nobody forced anything on us, we decided our own laws and leaders.

Easy Money wrote: In a free democratic society like we have in the US, the government is us. We are the government, we are a self-governing nation. The government is not the enemy, it is us, It is made up of people we freely elected. The laws we have were arrived at democratically as well, nobody forced anything on us, we decided our own laws and leaders.

Thank you for pointing that out.  Whenever I hear people in this country trashing government I have to think "What the hell are you thinking?"  Are we a government of by and for the people or not?  Are we not capable of forming a more perfect union?

I believe health care should be a right in this country in this day and age.  The only reason it wasn't was likely due to health care being non existent or blood lettings and other practices we regard barbaric.  I also think that with that right should also come some responsibilities.  To penalize or privilege people based on their ability to pay is ridiculous and I believe we as a society should recognize the need to take care of one another.  It makes us a better people.


Edited by Slartibartfast - March 19 2010 at 18:58

Negoba wrote: thellama73 wrote: Few people will put, in honest terms, what government health care really means, so here it is: It means that men with guns are going to take money by force from those that have earned it and give it to those that haven't. If they protest, they go to jail. If they resist going to jail strongly enough, they will be killed. Many people are okay with this plan and think it is fair. I don't. That's just where we disagree. I only wish people would express their views in concrete terms instead of in vague generalities like "the government should take care of poor people." If you believe that, fine, but say what you really mean. The government has no money of its own. Every dime they spend has to be forcibly taken from U.S. citizens (or borrowed, but that's a separate issue.)   I assume you are joking. If not you are a sorry excuse for a human being.

thellama73 wrote: Easy Money wrote: In a free democratic society like we have in the US, the government is us. We are the government, we are a self-governing nation. The government is not the enemy, it is us, It is made up of people we freely elected. The laws we have were arrived at democratically as well, nobody forced anything on us, we decided our own laws and leaders. This is true, but we are not now, nor have we ever been a true democracy. The founding fathers were against democracy because it results in a tyranny of the majority, where 51% of the people can take away the rights of the other 49%. That's why we have the constitution, to prevent certain bad things from happening.Incidentally, your point might just as well have been directed at The T, since he is the one who started this thread to complain about the current laws that "we decided."

Call it what you want, republic or democracy, it's still us, we decide, we vote for our leaders and our laws, the government is you and me and all who vote. As for T's OP, looks like the American people have changed their mind, we had the old system and now we are switching to something else.

Edited by Easy Money - March 19 2010 at 18:57

 ^ love you too.. now:

thellama73 wrote: The purpose of friends, family and community is to help each other through hard times. Now that the government provides everything, there's less incentive for people to get to know each other and play nice. That's why we've become so isolated and antisocial.

And what of the people - who you evidently haven't met yet - whose families have rejected them (yes it does happen)..  it sounds as if you simply haven't been exposed to enough different realities:  "The purpose of friends, family and community is to help each other through hard times".   I agree in principle, but principles aren't good enough, they aren't real.    That's coming from a place of ideas - which is to say idealism - but ideas don't exist, people do.  What conservatives are really  saying is "We don't think people should be helped in more than the most basic way--  their church, family and community should do it", which is a perfectly fine philosophy. 

What progressives are saying is "Bullsh*t, that's not reality and does not help those who don't have a strong family, who don't go to church (surprise surprise), and whose "community" cannot help. 

Just be honest:  you don't want to help those who can't help themselves.  Fine.  But the Dems are in charge and, yes, they're going to force an agenda they believe is necessary into the American system.  It's called political courage.  Screw whether or not it will 'hurt' the Dems or Obama.. is that really important?  Isn't what helps to improve a failing system what's important, and not the chances of being re-elected?  Of course it is.

The underlying issue here, which I've heard no one discuss on the news shows, is this:  The real fear of Republicans is not just a new Health Care system (which I do believe, to an extent, they oppose for real philosophical  reasons), it's Barrack Obama being successful and his changes being increasingly appreciated as the years and decades pass.  They don't like him or his point of view.

Heck you should be happy when Health Care passes, it means the Dems will be responsible and voted out and Obama only a 1-termer.

And of course another looming issue is Social Security which I believe should be changed, at least the age it kicks-in should be pushed back to 70 or 75, and that's just for starters





Edited by Atavachron - March 19 2010 at 19:10

Cool

It's all well an good to say that private citizens should pick up the slack of their own free will and on their own terms but the fact is that they aren't and there's a big mess left lying to be taken care of. Which means an authority of some kind has to force the issue.

I agree that it would be done more efficiently, with better elegance, and for the better good of society if the task was completed by the people independently. BUT IT ISN'T. When individuals, instead of balancing personal needs and public needs, instead choose a course that harms society, the government, with all it's bumbling has to step in. And that's exactly what we have now.

And my statement about evil was regarding the idea that personal ownership of property (or worse the artifice called "money") has some kind of trump card over the common good. That idea is inherently evil. And yes if you believe it, you are upholding an inherently selfish ideal.

Negoba wrote: And my statement about evil was regarding the idea that personal ownership of property (or worse the artifice called "money") has some kind of trump card over the common good. That idea is inherently evil. And yes if you believe it, you are upholding an inherently selfish ideal.

if I wasn't married... I'd be all over you like stink on sh*t.

at this point... I could give a sh*t.  America gets what it deserves on this.... if they really think that private industry and it's greed is less to fear than an imperfect government attempting to correct a social ill (something in that private industry.. ie.. the current healthcare system are far more secondary to profit )

then by all means.. take it... you'll pay.. trust me.. you'll pay when you get old enough to have responsibiliies.. a family.. and real bills... and a system that doesn't give a sh*t about you.. only that YOU can pay. 

and pay you will hahhah

*sound of thunder with evil laughter*

as I posted in Brian's thread.. the problem isn't the government.. it's the people here.  It's fears are based in some warped sense of reality.


Edited by micky - March 19 2010 at 19:57