What's wrong with ELP?

Cactus Choir wrote: M27Barney wrote: Wakeman was middle class! - he had Piano lessons. So having piano lessons makes you a toff then? Fair enough. Perhaps I've just been fooled by Rick's Cockerney accent.

I think he was upper working class.. He was born in Perivale, London and went to grammar school. He studied piano, and apparently clarinet at the royal college of music, but didn't complete his education there.   

Edited by Blacksword - March 16 2010 at 10:59

Blacksword wrote: I think he was upper working class.. He was born in Perivale, London and went to grammar school. He studied piano, and apparently clarinet at the royal college of music, but didn't complete his education there.

Thanks for clarifying that Blacksword. Of course I should have realised that any attempt to decipher the British class system is both foolish and fraught with pitfalls.

Emerson was bashed plain and simple for the theatrics on stage. Which many great musicians follow this path like Ian Anderson but, sometimes later in life looking upon it as a foolish act and wish never to return to it. Quite like Peter Gabriel wishing not to re-live his past with Genesis. To observe the attitudes of the YES fan verses the ELP fan, which in the 70's was a disease that infested everybody it seemed, is quite ridiculous to even think about .......But in fact it is the reason for ELP bashings to rule the universe today. It's a mentality that developed over decades. When I listen to Beggars Opera, Rare Bird, and various other prog bands from the early 70's, I can plainly hear the most obvious influences of Keith Emerson with the Nice. Graham Field was an outstanding player but I don't think I was very fond of all the artists that emulated the Emerson style and sound. Emerson had such a huge impact on European musicians during that magical early 70's period. For the longest time, people tried endlessly to either play like him? or emulate his synth sounds and not so much his structure. The history of this is indeed fascinating to me due to how Emerson was followed and worshipped by European musicians. He was an icon to many young progressive musicians that hailed from the ranks of other prog bands. Especially in the early 70's Nice period.

To answer the original question, there is nothing wrong with ELP, and people who have cited their huge influence on many bands of both the era and later are spot on.

The trouble with fandom is that it almost always, with a significant minority, descends into a who's better than who argument, which is pretty pointless given that this is all subjective anyway.

For my money, ELP simply did or do not give me as much pleasure as my favourite prog bands, and from the era, I always far preferred the output of bands such as Genesis, Yes, Floyd, Crimson, Tull & etc. That is not to say there is anything wrong with ELP, I just wasn't particularly keen on them. As for the accusation of being bombastic & overblown, this is the silly charge laid against virtually every prog act by a majority of journalists & critics since about 1977. I learned to ignore tosh such as that years ago.

TODDLER wrote: . In music college there was a mentality about Carl Palmer being a great diverse drummer of amazing speed but, played in a rock band which was shameful. It was basically a jazz snob concept that developed when Carl Palmer turned up in the media playing wild drum solos. These people were part of a club. I couldn't believe how many anti-Carl Palmer musicians there were. These types of social outbreaks were at that period in time crucial to the image of ELP. All these examples that I give when anyalized, are of a percentage of groups that were for one reason or the other, anti-ELP. During the 70's when this type of behaviour was spreading a disease, it consisted mainly with musicians. For whatever reason? Jealousy maybe?

Snobbery knew no bounds. Even Leonard Bernstein used to wind Emerson up 'Oh, Keith's writing a Piano Concerto,' in sarky tone.

I think one of the problems is that most genres of music are supposed to do something that other genres cannot do. So when a rock band features stunning drumming, rock is only supposed to reflect teen angst, not be a vehicle for great musicianship. Put that man in his place, Rock is the only form of music where you can be criticised negatively for playing fantastically.

Jazz looks down on rock becuase most rock well, it is uneducated and probably technically inferior to most jazz. This is a bit snobby as both musics do what they ares supposed to. Jazz accepts (for the most part) musical progression. Rock only does so whenever it is fashionable (the pop side). I mean prog to punk - hip hop is hardly musical progression in terms of sophistication. But rock is not about musical sophistication so when this phenomena turns up there is a pile up of voices.

You may have borne witness to the Dream Theater posts on this site. If DT were less sophisticated there would not be such wondering if DT were prog rock vs straight metal. This is just an example not a prompt to extend that debate here btw.

Aaron Copeland liked the full treatment Palmer and Lake played of Fanfare (KE just played him the single version which he thought sucked - not adventurious enough. IMHO this was a great tune for the radio - wonder how it would um, fare now if released?

ELP were a huge concert draw. Vastly ambitious and played their hearts out. This may have contributed to Emerson's hand problems I wonder? Too much touring, the demands on him were that of a concert pianist and he had the thatrics. Of course if they had sat around "just playing" they would have been sl*gged off for that. You can't win. (Unless you like their music and can hear and listen to it.)

Ronnie Pilgrim wrote: TODDLER wrote: Which many great musicians follow this path like Ian Anderson but, sometimes later in life looking upon it as a foolish act and wish never to return to it.  I would love for you to expound on this.

^excellent

There is nothing wrong w/  E LP

[/QUOTE] You mention that Leonard Bernstein used to wind up Emerson. I expect you are aware of the anecdote in Emersons autobiography 'Pictures At An Exhibitionist' when Bernstein was invited into the studio to listen to ELP's then new recording 'Pirates' of which Emerson was justifiably proud of.Bernstein as usual was not impressed. Greg Lake was also there and Bernstein started comparing himself to Beethoven (or some major classical composer) .Not sure of the exact words but Lake chimed in with ''Don't worry Lenny no one is going to confuse your music with Beethoven''. Emerson nearly died on the spot[/QUOTE]

I think I might've read that - quoted somewhere anyway, ELP list? Hilarious, I love things like that!

jammun wrote:   As rock wended its way into the '60s, well the ol' keyboard player was not quite so popular.  In fact I can't think of a single rock keyboard player who attained any status early on.  After The Beatles hit (I'm talking in the U.S.), well they didn't exactly feature any keyboard player.  The British Invasion bands, with the notable exceptions of The Dave Clark Five and The Animals, didn't really bring along a keyboard player, did they?    As those bands grew, and their influence either waxed or waned, well keyboards, especially the Vox Continental, became a bit more popular.  But again look at the bands with significant keyboard influence:  ? and the Mysterians; Sir Douglas Quintet; Zombies; Sam the Sham & the Pharoahs.  I'm leaving out many, but all of these had significant organ-driven songs.  So the keyboard as a lead rock instrument had been re-established.