jampa17 wrote: So... is Dream theater already a Prog Legend? I don't know but that was this thread point right...?

^We can still extract some homo-sapiens DNA from his moustache... 

progressive wrote:  Why can't brutal imitating music be sophisticated? Maybe if people like something or think it as natural music, it's sophisticated; for example, for me post-rock seems to be mainly just poser music, quasi-sophisticated and not straight from the heart. But it's just me. It isn't only because I don't like post-rock so much... I see some sophistication in many music, but nothing's perfect and there must be something wrong with other people and their music because... it's not me.

progressive wrote: DT...is... already a prog legend. DT is the best!

I agree fully with fieldofsorrow's comments. I'm listening to Images and Words and earlier I listened to Awake. The guys who don't get DT's music I feel sorry for because there is just so much magic in it. The sax in Another Day blew me away.

DavetheSlave wrote: I agree fully with fieldofsorrow's comments. I'm listening to Images and Words and earlier I listened to Awake. The guys who don't get DT's music I feel sorry for because there is just so much magic in it. The sax in Another Day blew me away. It's all a taste thing though. Some people aint interested in prog - they will listen to jazz or classics or heaven forbid - pop. I agree with Cert1fied on some things but it's obvious that our taste and theories differ vastly. I do perceive though that to say that DT aint a prog band is akin to saying that Carlos Santana doesn't know how to play a guitar - it makes no sense to me. I personally pick up more progressiveness in a DT album than I pick up from a Focus album and I adore Focus.

Perhaps it's because of my lack of knoledge of musical theory, but I just don't understand how DT could not be progressive, and how Metallica can be more progressive than DT. I just hear everything I love from prog on them (well, I tend to think of prog as just a short way of saying progressive music). And most of the music I like usually ends up being prog, or prog related (well, I do like very much some pop music, but I'm not so patient with it anymore; and some metal).

If Dream Theater did naturally evolve from their metal ancestors, in a genre which you and I agree has always been progressive, I see this as a very strong point in their favour for their credentials as a prog band. But you still have doubts, so let's see...

Claiming that Dream Theater sound like Heavy Metal is fair, but I fail to understand the problem. Iron Maiden and Black Sabbath had metal running through their veins, and were perfectly innovative and outside thinking. Besides, I'm amazed how anyone could call the opening staccato patch of 'Learning To Live', the classical guitar interlude further on, the funk break in 'Take The Time' and the intimate piano of 'Surrounded' and 'Wait For Sleep' metal either - they all spark off in their own direction.

Although I disagree that the modes are not apparent, (Petrucci's flirt with the mixolydian at the end of 'Take The Time' sounds just like what it is to me, as well as creating and resolving tension in a way not dissimilar from jazz musicians.) since when has a feature in music had to be obvious to be valid? ABBA's subtlety with form and harmony, and your various insights into Metallica's musicality can easily go unnoticed, but that doesn't make them any less there.

'And Justice...' was written four years before I&W, by the way. I don't think that Metallica ever touched Theater's rhythmic ideas, and I see little similarity. Can you give an example of rhythmic properties that sound alike between the two albums? Dream Theater had a great sensitivity with odd tempos - note the shift of gear as they slide seamlessly from 15/8 to 14/8 in the opening bars of 'Learning To Live', very slightly changing JP's orientation in the bar, and propelling the music on. I've rarely heard such attention to detail in metal.

Their swift unison lines were more inspired from jazz fusion acts, and the wild play offs between keyboard and guitar strike a resemblance of Chick Corea's work with Al Di Meola - both Rudess and JP acknowledge the musicians respectively as influences. 

Now come on, Cert1fied, I fail to see how anyone could call them 'generic heavy metal', even the haters. Perhaps it's the case more now, but back then... 'Images And Words' produced timbres that I don't think were heard in metal before that point. This was mainly thanks to Kevin Moore, and his use of strings, piano and sensibility towards James' melodies in his accompaniment, allowing for a stark contrast against Petrucci's thick guitar assault - doubled by virtuoso John Myung. The change of colours amidst their music was only one distinguishing attribute - I have discussed their rhythmic and harmonic ideas at length, and these simply could not be heard in metal before them.

Others played fast solos, yes, but I hardly think that John Petrucci sounded like Malmsteen, and I'm sure you don't either. His playing is distinct owing to his meticulous alternate picking technique and long chromatic runs - there was plenty of creative shred work.

I'll happily name something ambitious they did - 'Metropolis Pt 1'. Apart from anything else, they risked a lot of record sales by creating music of that kind of nature, especially when progressive music could not be more socially abhored by the masses.

Fundamentally, as to whether they are progressive or not, there is no difference, because I think they both unmistakably are.

^

Sorry, rogerthat, perhaps some of my comments seemed confusing out of context. I'm not arguing that Images and Words was a more innovative album than anything else in particular, only that it has progressive credentials.

Sure, Megadeth had a little piano opening, but that hardly equates to the extensive use of keys that Dream Theater used. I mean, apart from anything else, they actually HAD a keyboard player, and the use of acoustic piano was common in their music.

And as for my claims that they were risking a lot by creating this music, I don't believe this makes them anymore progressive. Of course it doesn't. But they had some integrity to show off here, and I was responding to a comment made by Cert1fied that they hadn't written anything ambitious.

Their uniqueness in metal was not my only claim, but merely one along with their dramatic development of texture, harmony and rhythmic experimentation within the context of the genre. Combine those two factors, and you have quite a forward thinking band, in my opinion.

Nah, it would be hard to argue a case for 'Black Clouds' being progressive, and I think that they're writing music purely to please themselves these days. Don't get me wrong, I really enjoy their later work, and there's nothing wrong with writing like that - they can afford it.

I also agree that the likes of King Crimson and ELP were more progressive - I think that DT weren't even trying to set out to be particularly innovative, anyway. It's natural that many bands have a higher degree of progressiveness, but Dream Theater have certainly proven their weight in gold over the years. But yeah, Pain of Salvation stand out for sure as a remarkable progressive band.