Prog vs Progressive - Is there such a thing? - Progressive Rock Music Forum

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Ancient Troubadour View Drop Down

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Topic: Prog vs Progressive - Is there such a thing?
Posted: March 29 2010 at 03:34

Story Telling... and CnW?

D'oh! You got me there!

Any rate, I'll be watching for your further analysis of "what is..." with interest.

Thanks for that!

Cheers!

Tales of the Ancient Troubadour:
http://www.myspace.com/ancienttroubadour. Promo album download on request.

Certif1ed

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Posted: March 29 2010 at 03:24

Ancient Troubadour wrote:

Yep!

Ready for part II now.

Give us the goods on what makes a piece progressive!!

I'd like to put for'ard a cupla pieces which epitomise the progressive nature for me:

There's the mostly uncomposed type which DOES include jamming, but jamming that is exceedingly sensitive: namely Anonymus II by Focus, which can stretch to 40 minutes or more, which has set changes and stages but can include unplanned changes of meter, chord structure and theme (before returning to the agreed parts) in other words it's a piece of music which is alive rather than a monotonously revolving turnaround. This takes extreme musicianship because not many musos are sensitive enough to hear an unplanned change in direction coming "in the air" and follow it. It takes almost some supernatural thing for a whole band to have this kind of communication going, its almost "esp"!

That kind of changeableness is certainly progressive... It's about exploring and experimenting, which is certainly a hallmark of progress.

Then there's the kind which is definitely mostly composed but always takes you on a journey in the heart and mind... to some other world or place. At the risk of being called a boob for bringing up a non prog band for my example: Telegraph Road by Dire Straits. That certainly unfolds and progresses like a journey. Certainly a ride of hope and despair.

I may be wrong, but I reckon a Rock Opera or a Concept album could hardly be far from qualifying as progressive since they generally explore pithy ideas. The hallmark of a progger is to be a thinker... a deep questioner... might that then mean Chris Rea's "Road to Hell" might qualify?

I'm certain Iona's "Beyond these Shores" is prog.

Like Oldfield's Tubular Bells I think some sort of story is always being told even if it's too abstract to pick out... being a story told in musical ideas in moods if not in words.

So in that respect I wonder if storytelling is an important factor in defining prog.

Cheers,

Let's hear part 2, eh?

I think you're getting into the "elements" side of things a bit too much, and drawing conclusions from a limited evidence base - ie you hear a certain trait in a couple of "Prog" albums, then fit those to "non-Prog" and hear "Prog" - a natural tendency.

Of course, it's just possible I'm doing that too, even though I am consciously trying to avoid it - which is why being overly-specific can lead to false conclusions.

I certainly don't think you're a "boob" for mentioning "Telegraph Road" - and you could have mentioned "Private Investigations" too - many "non-Prog" bands have written progressive pieces, and herein lies the core of the whole Prog vs Progressive issue - and the main part I have been chewing over is where does "Progressive" actually begin, and at what point does it enter into the hallowed realms of "Prog".

Obviously, there are no "lines", so I decided upon a sliding scale approach combined with a model which represents an ideal. Obviously, the model has limitations - it doesn't mention Rodney Matthews, the Mellotron or triple album sets, for example, but there's plenty we can extrapolate.

This "band ESP" thing you mention is interesting - but I think that any decent band has it to some extent. I recently jammed with a band I'd never played with before, and within the first half hour I discovered just this kind of synergy between myself and the drummer (I was playing bass).

That said, it is a core part of what I look for in the "Prog" I enjoy most - where the music takes on this kind of mind-reading quality (I've heard it a lot in really good jazz bands) so you are no longer conscious of listening to "Rock" music per se, that is, the notion of a "song" goes out the window - and you simply go with the flow.

Without being familiar with all of Focus' music, I would say that they were a great example, from the limited number of their pieces I know, and I'd say that "Anonymous II" is a good call.

Story-telling is not confined to Prog, however - much folk and C&W draws heavily on a story-telling tradition, for example.

The important thing is not to stop questioning.

Certif1ed

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Posted: March 29 2010 at 03:03

earlyprog wrote:

Certif1ed wrote:

Indeed - and this could be a good area to explore further.

IMO, the order of those you listed as examples would be (least "prog" first) - but this list is only as a guess, because I am not familiar with the entire catalogue of any of these bands, only with the most representative material;

Sky

Vanilla Fudge

Procol Harum

Ekseption

Spirit

Andrew Lloyd Webber (I'm thinking specifically of "Variations" here, of course - none of the rest of his output comes close. This is also a cheating way of getting Colosseum II above Spirit, as really, I think they're about equal).

The Nice (by an extremely long way).

The approach you are applying to reach this conclusion is way - WAY - too simplistic.

I'm not surprised you're reaching all the wrong conclusions;

Which conclusions are wrong - all of them?

Wow - can you be specific rather than throwing this blunt implement at me?

If you're referring only to that specific post, then I admit, I did generalise hugely, but in my defence, the rest of this blog is much more specific.

earlyprog wrote:

you are averaging out all the innovative songs in these acts' output and this explains your generic presentation. It was from the beginning - unfortunately still remains - a major drawback of your analysis.

I fail to see how it makes a difference to this discussion, and particularly to my analysis, let alone constituting a "major drawback".

This is a specific topic - there is simply no way we can look at each and every band's ouput, so it must be "averaged out".

However, if certain pieces contributed hugely, then we could examine them in terms of how far they reach the "goals" of progressive music, both contemporary and in a wider sense.

earlyprog wrote:

By using this "first order approximation" you neglect all the innovators of the proto-prog movement, who - by implication - gave us a little progressive music here and there.

Instead of continuing this generic approach I suggest you are more specific and present evidence/data in support of your claims. Please provide the documentaion by means of individual songs as this would prove that your list can be turned upside down. I won't bother listing the songs to verify my statement as this thread obviously is the wrong place to do this.

Actually you would need to specify the exact songs - or how could documentation be provided?

I rather feel from your challenge, that you should be not only providing the songs, but the analysis that "proves me wrong" (not sure how you can possibly prove me" wrong" when this entire blog is an exploration rather than a series of specific claims).

By "not bothering" to provide any evidence (this thread is obviously exactly the right place for this) I can only assume that you don't really know of any, and that you're placing the entire burden on me to resolve your challenge - which is less "specific" than nit-picky, IMHO.

earlyprog wrote:

At least you openly admit your ignorance by saying you're only vaguely familiar with the output of these bands. I would have preferred this statement in your opening post.

Why?

Those bands were entirely irrelevant to my opening post.

I must also point out that my "vaguely familiar" may be different to someone else's... it means that I have not sat down and transcribed the music in my mind, figuring out the technical goodies and weeding out the wheat from the chaff - the scientific analysis, not the romantic poetic ideals presented by the music.

I freely admit my ignorance levels - why not - it's how I learn. What's the point of pretending you know everything? Especially when you don't

Edited by Certif1ed - March 29 2010 at 03:06

The important thing is not to stop questioning.

Ancient Troubadour View Drop Down

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Posted: March 29 2010 at 02:48

Yep!

Ready for part II now.

Give us the goods on what makes a piece progressive!!

I'd like to put for'ard a cupla pieces which epitomise the progressive nature for me:

That kind of changeableness is certainly progressive... It's about exploring and experimenting, which is certainly a hallmark of progress.

I'm certain Iona's "Beyond these Shores" is prog.

Like Oldfield's Tubular Bells I think some sort of story is always being told even if it's too abstract to pick out... being a story told in musical ideas in moods if not in words.

So in that respect I wonder if storytelling is an important factor in defining prog.

Cheers,

Let's hear part 2, eh?

Tales of the Ancient Troubadour:
http://www.myspace.com/ancienttroubadour. Promo album download on request.

lor68

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Posted: March 13 2010 at 09:03

Dear sir,

I'm the keyboardplayer from Lethe (former romantic progressive band of the early nineties in italy) and during a lot of interviews I was almost obliged to give an explanation regarding my idea of "Progressive Music"...but of course it's a question of labels...with the term "prog (in the sense of progressive attitude)/prog related, usually you mean a different music genre like AOR or Pompous music melodic rock (listen to SUPERTRAMP, Kansas or Asia, or even Toto and Queen), whose music is more accessible, but it can contains some virtuosic elements or other features that you can find usually within the pure progressive music (even though here in a more extended manner)... instead the "pure progressive", sometimes under the language of symphonic rock or symphonic jazz, is actually a mix of several styles, where you can find elements of polyphonic and medieval music or even the music of F. Zappa (listen to After Crying for instance), and the common elements are represented by the extended or long interplays between the instruments, as well as the strong presence of the virtuosic elements and long solos too. Besides here you can find the development of a complex music plot, like the chapters of a novel linked together under a "light-motiv", then growing along with the inspiration of the musician (according to a "work in progress"), which let him gain his own "magic" experience of "plot developer"... but naturally it's more difficult to be understood by the common listener (above all if it's an avant-gard music like that one by Henry Cow for example), in comparison to a more accessible music genre such as the prog related music...nevertheless the progressive rock by early Genesis, Yes and ELP can be easier sometimes and enriched by means of melodic ballads as well...ok I prefer to give you my idea, by indicating all the sub-genres under the label "PROG" in the following lines:

Starting with the explanation concerning the difference among THE ROMANTIC CLASSIC PROG MAIN GENRE (Yes, early Genesis,ELP, Renaissance and Camel), the seminal PROTO-PROG/ART ROCK SUB-GENRE, by Titus Groan,High Tide,Quatermass,King Crimson,Jade Warrior,etc.)going to the modern version of ART ROCK nowadays (Don Caballero,Djam Karet or modern King Crimson- as from “Lark’s Tongue in aspic 2nd era till the 3rd era of “Discipline”, “Beat” and “3 of perfect pair”-), and the most ambitious and difficult sub-genre called NEO CLASSICAL/EXP.SYMPHONIC SUB-GENRE(After Crying,Univers Zero,Solaris,etc.), I remark all that following:

<PROTO-PROG>: it's the seminal prog style, very close to the art rock style, but under the major influence of psichedelic elements (listen for example to Second Hand's "Death may be your Santa Claus"), this genre representing the oldest attempt to bring elements of different styles,which aren't necessarily linked to rock blues and classic rock/hard rock (listen for example to the experimental band -a bit "Led Zeppelin" oriented- High Tide, which adds the violin and some hard pshichedelic colors too) ",trying anyway to perform a new kind of harmonic solutions, sometimes connected to the experimental jazz field (listen for example to Affinity or Audience, while Nice and Quatermass are very poor from this point of view, remaining linked to the classic rock;even though Quatermass stands in this place hardly, because they are much closer to the hard rock style of Deep Purple, by adding only some organ riffs and solos);instead the majority of the classic mellow pop bands of the 70's,these ones sometimes being "light classical music oriented", is often characterized by their reprise of "airs" from J.S.Bach or simple themes from classical music (e.g. Procol Harum,Moody Blues+the already mentioned Nice, and -in some circumstances only- Kayak and Ekseption as well, but avoiding the jazz style !!)

<ART ROCK>: It's the first attempt(late Sixties/Early 70'S)to bring the rock style of the sixties into 70’s music and a new field of exploration as well, trying to create a mix with other styles (Jazz, Electronic, Classic music and the dissonant hard rock as well),often in a very raw manner, in other moments in the pop mellow way of Procul Harum,Moody Blues,Barclay James Harvest,maintaining anyway the typical proto-prog structure of the sixties, where the simple form of rockblues is not erased yet:early King Crimson fits into it!

<ROMANTIC PROG MAIN GENRE>:it’s the first of the "genealogic" list and more accessible as well; it can be sometimes very complex(YES, early GENESIS,ELP, Renaissance in the symphonic vein, with light or complex symphonic elements, also in the traditional folk structure and often in a "theatre-musical" vein , like in the style of ANGE and The Enid):It's the first complete settlement of Prog rock,it can be complex but also captivating and suitable for common people (often the classical suite-structure is dominant-like the Yes symphonies or that one of Renaissance’s Scheherazade;besides in some albums by Camel,who covered also the light canterburian style in "MoonMadness",you can not see many classical structures,apart from “The snow Goose” and “Harbour of tears”,but rather great guitar excursus in a lot of different styles, in the vein of the old Genesis;instead in the case of the band Renaissance,there are also some contaminations between the traditional english folk and the classic music as well, not in the manner- that experimental one - of Gryphon)- Sagrado coracao da terra is inthe middle between the Camel style and the classic prog of YES/ELP (listen to the fugue of the second symphonic side of “Fletcha”)
At last,in this field, there are a couple of diverse sub-genres,those are:

<The Gentle Giant style and thatone by Frank Zappa>

The first one is characterized by the continued contamination between complex vocal renaissance poliphony, medioeval style and experimental Jazz,in a incredible cocktail, which sometimes can be closer to Art rock, in other moments is near chamber music, but avoiding the experimental Canterbury fusion prog of neoclassical/symphonic style(Myrthrandir, Yezda Urfa plus Echolyn of ”Suffocating the bloom” and “As the world” are fine examples, sometimes in a more modern fusion vein, instead Hamadryad are closer to modern prog-metal,but without forgetting the elements of renaissance poliphony).

The second one is characterized by a cocktail of rock, blues, experimental jazz/fusion and theatrical "musicals" as well (see ensembles like that one of Isildur's Bane or sometimes that one already mentioned of After Crying.)

<NEO-CLASSICAL/EXP.SYMPHONIC>: This sub-genre is a step beyond, being more complex and characterized by the contamination of Classic prog, either with chamber music(sometimes with excerpts of medioeval music and renaissance polyphony as well) or classic/jazz fusion style (even with acoustic instrumentation only),without any precise direction or any particular preclusion. It can be sometimes very dark and experimental, in the experimental/symphonic Canterbury vein (Magma and Dun for the experimental side,Minimum Vital and J. Pascal Boffo for the fusion symphonic one, are fine examples,but without forgetting also great bands such as After Crying and Isildurs Bane)"picking" all the tones and colors of musical harmony: for this reason this sub-genre is the most ambitious style

<OTHER STYLES AND THE MODERN ONES>:FUSION PROG, EXPERIMENTAL FOLK PROG, LIGHT FOLK PROG,LIGHT CANTERBURY, CLASSIC EXPERIMENTAL CANTERBURY, DARK PROG, NEW PROGRESSIVE WAVE, PROGRESSIVE POP/POMP, PROGRESSIVE STEEL, AMBIENT, NEW AGE,etc.

amznJQ.onReady('popover', function() { jQuery("[name^=sylt_product_pop|]").each( function(i) { var localContentId = this.name.split("|")[1]; if(localContentId.length > 0) { jQuery(this).amazonPopoverTrigger( { localContent : jQuery("#" + localContentId), showOnHover : true, hoverShowDelay : 0, hoverHideDelay : 0, width: null }); } } ) } );

So you'd like to...
know the several sub-genres under the label "PROG"

A guide by Lethe "lor68"

(Milan, Italy)

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Products sampled from this guide:


6	De Profundis	High Tide

› See all 43 products mentioned in this guide below

< =text/> .syltH { padding: 10px 0 0 0; } .syltPL { padding: 10px 3px 10px 3px; }

(Exp.Symphonic/Zappa style/Crimson oriented art rock)
De Profundis

(Experimental Symphonic/neoclassical)
High Tide

(Proto-prog)
Valentyne Suite

(Proto-prog/progressive blues)
Sagrado Coracao da Terra

(Light Symphonic)
<product no longer available> (Light Symphonic-Musical/concept format)
Dust and Dreams

(Light Symphonic concept format)
Udu Wudu

(Experimental Canterbury/"Zeuhl" Music)
Mind, Vol. 1

(Frank Zappa style/Neoclassical Exp.Symphonic)
In Praise of Learning (Original Mix)

(Experimental Canterbury/H.Cow's style of his own)
Pawn Hearts

(Dark Prog)
H to He, Who Am the Only One

(Dark Prog)
Sacrament

(Exp. modern Folk prog)
Red Queen to Gryphon Three

(Exp.classic Folk prog)
Songs from the Wood

(Classic Folk prog)
Turn of the Cards

(Classic prog/folk prog)
Scheherazade & Other Stories

(Classic Symphonic prog/folk prog)
Fable of the Seven Pillows

(Symphonicprog/classicmusic-oriented folk prog)
<product no longer available> (Symphonic prog)
Pictures at an Exhibition

(Classic Symphonic prog)
Close to the Edge

(Symphonic prog)
The Power and the Glory

(Gentle Giant's contemporary prog style)
Retreat

(Contemporary Light Canterbury)
Moonmadness

(Classic Light Canterbury)
A Nod and a Wink

(Contemporary classic melodic prog)
Mirage

(Classic Prog)
Selling England by the Pound

(Classic Prog)
Sins of Our Saviours

(Fusion prog/Exp.Classic prog)
Forgiving Eden

(Fusion prog/Exp.Classic prog)

Lethe's keyboardplayer

Dean

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Posted: March 11 2010 at 15:38

earlyprog wrote:

Certif1ed wrote:

Indeed - and this could be a good area to explore further.

Sky

Vanilla Fudge

Procol Harum

Ekseption

Spirit

The Nice (by an extremely long way).

The approach you are applying to reach this conclusion is way - WAY - too simplistic.

I'm not surprised you're reaching all the wrong conclusions; you are averaging out all the innovative songs in these acts' output and this explains your generic presentation. It was from the beginning - unfortunately still remains - a major drawback of your analysis.

By using this "first order approximation" you neglect all the innovators of the proto-prog movement, who - by implication - gave us a little progressive music here and there.

At least you openly admit your ignorance by saying you're only vaguely familiar with the output of these bands. I would have preferred this statement in your opening post.

I think it is significant that those one-off tracks like Repent Walpurgis were a blip in their repertoire which diminishes the importance of those tracks a little. Procol Harum (at least with Trower in the band) continued, in the main, down the R'n'B route until Grand Hotel and by then the Progressive Rock genre was fairly well established in its own right. (as you rightly say) they gave us a little progressive music here and there, but that is with the benefit of hindsight - it is fair to average out the innovation, (if that actually was "innovation" - again, I find that claim slightly dubious). If it had no affect on any other band's output during that early period of progressive rock (and there is little evidence that it did) then I question just how much that influenced Prog Rock of the late 60s early 70s at the time.

What?

earlyprog

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Posted: March 11 2010 at 12:38

Certif1ed wrote:

Indeed - and this could be a good area to explore further.

Sky

Vanilla Fudge

Procol Harum

Ekseption

Spirit

The Nice (by an extremely long way).

The approach you are applying to reach this conclusion is way - WAY - too simplistic.

By using this "first order approximation" you neglect all the innovators of the proto-prog movement, who - by implication - gave us a little progressive music here and there.

At least you openly admit your ignorance by saying you're only vaguely familiar with the output of these bands. I would have preferred this statement in your opening post.

Edited by earlyprog - March 11 2010 at 12:39

harmonium.ro View Drop Down

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Posted: March 11 2010 at 09:33

Sean Trane wrote:

I didn't read the thread, so I gdon't whether what I xil say had already been said

BUT

PROG seems nowadays be reserved for néo-retro-symphonic and encompasses a wide part of progmetal. But it's been years since Prog (THAT lind of "prog") has been progressive.

There might be exceptions to the rule

Very good post Hugues. That is the exact same reason why I don't use the word "prog" when discussing related topics, as for most people "prog" has come to represent only a part of the whole of progressive rock, namely that which is based on instrumental interplay, rich sound (synths and organs), and has the "classic" sound. No wonder we have threads like "Is Pink Floyd/Zappa/Krautrock/post-rock/avant-rock/electronic/modern-prog/etc prog?". By the standards of "prog purists", all those aren't prog - and I'm willing to live with it and accept they aren't "prog", but are "progressive rock".

Certif1ed

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Posted: March 11 2010 at 09:12

Indeed - and this could be a good area to explore further.

Sky

Vanilla Fudge

Procol Harum

Ekseption

Spirit

The Nice (by an extremely long way).

The important thing is not to stop questioning.

Dean

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Posted: March 11 2010 at 07:05

^ there is also the question (Sword of Damocles stylee) on just how "prog" any of those bands mentioned (Procol, Nice, Spirit, Fudge, Ekseption, Sky, ALW etc), really are/were.

What?

Certif1ed

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Posted: March 11 2010 at 06:37

Maybe "merge" was a bit strong, as Dean is right - this did not happen to the same extent as Jazz.

The bands who did try were few and far between - there's The Nice (in whose context I brought the subject up), Ekseption, Sky, The Enid and Andrew Lloyd Webber...

I'll have to revisit that - as I noted at the end of the post, I really should avoid posting after a snifter or two...

The important thing is not to stop questioning.

earlyprog

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Posted: March 11 2010 at 06:13

Dean wrote:

I'm (still) unconvinced by this, though I will begrudgingly accept that some (not all) bands incorporated jazz into their music (or rocked-up the jazz they were playing), I don't for classical.

Bands of the late 60s took two things from classical - some nicked melodies wholesale, and some wanted that "orchestral" sound - few (if any) actually tried to create classical/rock fusions, or used classical structures, formats, techniques and applied them to rock music. While we can look back and see patterns in some of the more epic pieces and say "there - classical structure" I think we are seeing animal shapes in the clouds or the Madonna image burnt into a slice of toast.

A few early attempts at classical/rock fusion did succeed I think, such as Procol Harum (Repent Walpurgis), Spirit (Veruska), Vanilla Fudge (The Sky Cried when...). Many other early examples of a classical/rock mix exist but they are not shaken/mixed as well as these three.

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Posted: March 10 2010 at 17:13

Certif1ed wrote:

Why stop at jazz? The Nice most certainly didn't (and neither did Clouds, but The Nice were better at it). Merge Classical into the mix, and this must be the ultimate - the big 3 genres of music all mixed up together.

Mixing it all up - now there's a key element, surely?

Why stop at mixing different musical styles or genres together? Why not mix up the music until you can hardly tell you're listening to music any more?

I'm (still) unconvinced by this, though I will begrudgingly accept that some (not all) bands incorporated jazz into their music (or rocked-up the jazz they were playing), I don't for classical.

The use of "classical" music sound is a product of the studio system of the 60s and 70s, that is a throw-back to the 30s, 40s and 50s where all "pop" vocalists were recorded with an orchestral backing, so all major studios had a studio orchestra, or access to one. While in the 50s and 60s skiffle groups and Beat combos became popular, the studio orchestra was still used to fill-out the sparse sound of badly played electrified instruments. The Hammond organ, the Synthesiser and the Melotron where all developed as cheap replacements for these studio orchestras - there were not intended as lead instruments, but as musical putty to fill-in the gaps (in the 70s Godley and Creme developed the Gizmo™ for exactly that reason). Baroque pop, Days Of Future Passed, Whiter Shade Of Pale and Sgt Pepper took that a little further and brought the orchestral element to the fore a little more, but they were still essentially orchestrated pop, not classical influenced. The early Progressive Rock was no different really - while The Nice Put a rock edge to classical pieces, and extrapolated that into noise-jams, and Deep Purple created a classical sounding concerto with Rock interludes, the rest just created an orchestral sound to rock music - Renaissance probably came closest but then it was more chamber music than symphonic. If Prog Rock is so closely tied to classical in its roots then I'd expect to see more crossovers from one genre to the other (and aside from Karl Jenkins...) it just hasn't happened.

Edited by Dean - March 10 2010 at 17:20

What?

Certif1ed

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Posted: March 10 2010 at 15:56

Sean Trane wrote:

I didn't read the thread, so I gdon't whether what I xil say had already been said

BUT

PROG seems nowadays be reserved for néo-retro-symphonic and encompasses a wide part of progmetal. But it's been years since Prog (THAT lind of "prog") has been progressive.

There might be exceptions to the rule

BTW: is "progressive" == to innovation or experimental??

Well I'm not sure how easy to understand the model is that I posted much earlier in this Blog, but it kinda covers all bases - and probably provokes confusion into the bargain...

The thing with the term "Progressive Music" is that it could actually describe any music, if you wanted it to - hence I took the viewpoint of a kind of sliding scale with an ultimate goal, but no discernable start point.

This merely re-interprets the model - but if both are used, then sensible deductions can be made - but really it's hard to escape hardcore musical theory, which I am trying to do, and easier to cite examples.

Without having been there (and remember, "there" was different depending on WHO and WHERE you were!), it's impossible to state with certainty what the goals of the original progressive rockers were - so it's only by applying theory that we see any concrete similarities between Pink Floyd, Genesis, Gentle Giant and Frank Zappa - although, as was stated earlier, we can hear similarities in early Floyd and Zappa...

So let's *guess* from data that's a bit more vague, but no less verifiable;

The main goal of the progressive musicians appeared to be to create new music (whether rock or not).

Progressive "Rock" is a nice term, because it effectively binds the music to the Rock idiom - and if you apply the above goal, you understand that the Rock should be new sounding - ie, not sound like Rock has traditionally sounded.

The Mellotron was, of course, a key player - you could add various textures and hey presto! A standard rock song suddenly has that Proggy vibe.

Then there was the huge jazz aspect - play rock as if it was jazz music, and you get kudos for playing "hard" jazz music, whilst appealing to rock fans at the same time as creating something new sounding. The unsung Scottish band Clouds did a lot of this - check out "Up Above Their Heads".

Mixing it all up - now there's a key element, surely?

Why stop at mixing different musical styles or genres together? Why not mix up the music until you can hardly tell you're listening to music any more?

...and you wonder why I don't consider standard songs to have very much to do with Prog?

Of course, that was then and this is now - but surely the whole mixing it up thing is core to progressive music?

...and I don't mean at a "timid" level, like Muse adding a trumpet to a song and making it sound somewhat Western - I mean at a cutting-edge level. Hell, the cutters don't have to be particularly sharp.

So where is that starting point again?

/makes note not to post after partaking of the amber nectar - this probably won't make sense tomorrow...

The important thing is not to stop questioning.

idiotPrayer View Drop Down

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Posted: March 10 2010 at 12:55

My personal view of music is something like this, using a "box" as a way of explaining:

Popular/conventional music (not the same thing as pop) = music inside the box and follows presets, going in a "straight line"

Progressive music = music going it's own way, can be in/outside the box but coming from inside the box

Experimental music = music going it's own way, can be in/outside the box but coming from a more rational perspective with no "presets", from outside the box

This may be completely out of subject and weird to some but this is just my personal view

Sean Trane View Drop Down

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Posted: March 10 2010 at 11:23

I didn't read the thread, so I gdon't whether what I xil say had already been said

BUT

PROG seems nowadays be reserved for néo-retro-symphonic and encompasses a wide part of progmetal. But it's been years since Prog (THAT lind of "prog") has been progressive.

There might be exceptions to the rule

BTW: is "progressive" == to innovation or experimental??

let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter
keep our sand-castle virtues
content to be a doer
as well as a thinker,
prefer lifting our pen
rather than un-sheath our sword

ExittheLemming View Drop Down

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Posted: March 05 2010 at 22:57

[/QUOTE]

Possibly Muse and likewise moody pop bands could be seen as a recurrence of Proto-Prog, that is to say progressive music gathering speed in culture. I think we will see the same kind of receptiveness for more artistic musicality that was foremost in the 70's, as I still feel that every new wave of music eventually gets bored accepting other people's standards and starts finding it's own musical feet. Who knows, maybe 2011 will hold a double concept album by Kanye?

Lemming - Isn't it good that progression of the noughties will not resemble progression of the seventies?

[/QUOTE]

Yes, it would be hard to be at the cutting edge while looking over your shoulder. I meant this as a good thing.

LeStaf

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Posted: March 05 2010 at 11:08

Is there such a thing? I don't think so.

Prog is more used to set different trends of progressive musics (prog-metal, prog-hardcore, symphonic prog, prog-esterone, etc.)

Progressive is the term used by the early fans of this music, but basicallly, prog and progressive mean the same stream, with its different branches.

LeStaff

Certif1ed

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Posted: February 28 2010 at 06:07

MaxerJ wrote:

Maybe it would be easier to make a list of music that does not encorporate progressiveness? LOL

On "Piper at the Gates of Dawn"?

Don't forget I was breaking down a single album - and roughly, because a full analysis would take ages.

MaxerJ wrote:

Seriously though, I'm sure we've all raged at our friend's music, saying, 'It all sounds the same!'

Probably, but that's not what's happening here - I'm analysing the music for "Progressiveness" - and it's a given that "Progressiveness" is hard to define, so in this thread, I've put forward a model which seems to work quite well.

This is not about some arbitrary opinion - that would be a fruitless argument.

It's more about finding something concrete that we can agree on.

MaxerJ wrote:

Maybe it would be easier to draw the line from the other side?

If you read this thread through fully, you'll note that I explored that approach, and I do not believe it can be done - I don't think there is actually a "starting point" for progressive music - It rather seems that there is an ultimate goal instead, represented by the model.

Whether it's universally shared is another part of this discussion entirely

The important thing is not to stop questioning.

MaxerJ

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Posted: February 28 2010 at 01:21

Certif1ed wrote:

There are so many key points that make it a Progressive Rock album that I would miss loads out by making a simple list - but here goes;

1) The overall sound and style is unique. You can dig around and listen to everything released in 1967 and not hear anything that's really like it - sure, there are clear influence from various sources, but there isn't a single piece of music on "Piper..." that directly sounds like something else.

2) Aspects of the Kenton model are on plain view, especially in "Astronomy Domine", "Interstellar Overdrive" and even "Bike".

3) Even the simpler songs show a tendency to want to disrupt the song format, and most have unconventional arrangements, e.g "The Scarecrow".

4) Melody lines tend to be longer and less predictable than "average" pop songs, even though the overall flavour is of a popular song. To be clear, we need an "average" song or two from 1967 - although we could pick an above average one, such as almost anything on "Sergeant Pepper" (these two albums influenced each other, so this may not be a good pick!).

As an alternative, we could choose Procol Harum's "Whiter Shade of Pale", held by many to be progressive - yet the melody and accompaniment is, comparatively, utterly predictable and within the typical remit of organ-driven pop/rock as established by the likes of Graham Bond's Organisation and The Animals.

5) Harmonically, we run into dissonance at an unprecedented rate for a pop/rock music album, and a tendency towards electronic sounds and "spacey" effects. I believe that this was influenced by the electronic music underground, which tends to be overlooked from that time - even though Paul McCartney wrote an electronic piece that was performed (just the once) at one of the Million Volt Sound and Light Raves (IIRC).

6) Piper has an overall coherence as a complete album that I can't quite put my finger on - yet the pieces themselves are disparate in style. This is nothing like the smooth flow of "DSoTM", yet somehow it binds itself together.

7) Stuff I haven't thought of yet...

Maybe it would be easier to make a list of music that does not encorporate progressiveness? LOL

Seriously though, I'm sure we've all raged at our friend's music, saying, 'It all sounds the same!'
Maybe it would be easier to draw the line from the other side?

ExittheLemming wrote:

rogerthat wrote:

ExittheLemming wrote:

It's a shame that the sort of receptive audience and adventurous musical climate that must have existed for Prog to be possible is unlikely to ever appear again. Or am I just being defeatist and overly pessimistic ?

No, I don't think so at least Tongue

...either the musical climate was vastly different from now or there were some socio-cultural factors at work which aided the reception of such adventurous music. Or maybe...I think Dean has said something like this before, correct me if I am wrong, the adventure is not in prog but other pastures. I mean though Muse are on the archives, there's always debate over whether they are really prog or not. And I chalk that up with the packed crowds at Wembley to which they perform....maybe there's some sort of audience even today for adventurous music, just not the prog audience, who may have somewhere got a little too attached to odd time signatures and synthesizers. Dead

Yep, that's a valid point as we may be looking in the wrong place and for the wrong things for what we habitually deem to be truly progressive music. I've never heard Muse so can't comment but I've long harboured the suspicion that what will come to be recognised as the prog of the noughties is unlikely to resemble the 70's prog in any shape or form and will only earn its plaudits retrospectively.

Godspeed, You Bolero Enthusiasts

'Prog is all about leaving home...' - Moshkito