"Progressive" can be a catch-all to mean "different", but makes it sound more impressive, as if the musicians had lofty goals of creating a new and higher form of music.

 

I would think (after a single hearing, to be fair) that Magazine sit at the bottom of the "sliding scale of progressive".

 

It sounded to me as if creating a higher form of music was the opposite of their intentions - an "attitude" which has more in common with the original goals of Punk Rock ("Punk" meaning "useless", as the punks were first to announce).

 

The end result, noise as music, may have much in common with certain goals of progressive music - but not many. It was, after all, the antithesis of Prog (supposedly)!

Possibly Muse and likewise moody pop bands could be seen as a recurrence of Proto-Prog, that is to say progressive music gathering speed in culture. I think we will see the same kind of receptiveness for more artistic musicality that was foremost in the 70's, as I still feel that every new wave of music eventually gets bored accepting other people's standards and starts finding it's own musical feet. Who knows, maybe 2011 will hold a double concept album by Kanye?

Lemming - Isn't it good that progression of the noughties will not resemble progression of the seventies?

I'm (still) unconvinced by this, though I will begrudgingly accept that some (not all) bands incorporated jazz into their music (or rocked-up the jazz they were playing), I don't for classical.

 

Bands of the late 60s took two things from classical - some nicked melodies wholesale, and some wanted that "orchestral" sound - few (if any) actually tried to create classical/rock fusions, or used classical structures, formats, techniques and applied them to rock music. While we can look back and see patterns in some of the more epic pieces and say "there - classical structure" I think we are seeing animal shapes in the clouds or the Madonna image burnt into a slice of toast.

 

The use of "classical" music sound is a product of the studio system of the 60s and 70s, that is a throw-back to the 30s, 40s and 50s where all "pop" vocalists were recorded with an orchestral backing, so all major studios had a studio orchestra, or access to one. While in the 50s and 60s skiffle groups and Beat combos became popular, the studio orchestra was still used to fill-out the sparse sound of badly played electrified instruments. The Hammond organ, the Synthesiser and the Melotron where all developed as cheap replacements for these studio orchestras - there were not intended as lead instruments, but as musical putty to fill-in the gaps (in the 70s Godley and Creme developed the Gizmo™ for exactly that reason). Baroque pop, Days Of Future Passed, Whiter Shade Of Pale and Sgt Pepper took that a little further and brought the orchestral element to the fore a little more, but they were still essentially orchestrated pop, not classical influenced. The early Progressive Rock was no different really - while The Nice Put a rock edge to classical pieces, and extrapolated that into noise-jams, and Deep Purple created a classical sounding concerto with Rock interludes, the rest just created an orchestral sound to rock music - Renaissance probably came closest but then it was more chamber music than symphonic. If Prog Rock is so closely tied to classical in its roots then I'd expect to see more crossovers from one genre to the other (and aside from Karl Jenkins...) it just hasn't happened.

 

The bands who did try were few and far between - there's The Nice (in whose context I brought the subject up), Ekseption, Sky, The Enid and Andrew Lloyd Webber...

 

I'll have to revisit that - as I noted at the end of the post, I really should avoid posting after a snifter or two...

 

IMO, the order of those you listed as examples would be (least "prog" first) - but this list is only as a guess, because I am not familiar with the entire catalogue of any of these bands, only with the most representative material;

 

Sky

Vanilla Fudge

Procol Harum

Ekseption

Spirit

Andrew Lloyd Webber (I'm thinking specifically of "Variations" here, of course - none of the rest of his output comes close. This is also a cheating way of getting Colosseum II above Spirit, as really, I think they're about equal).

 

 

 

The Nice (by an extremely long way).

 

 

 

The approach you are applying to reach this conclusion is way - WAY - too simplistic.

 

I'm not surprised you're reaching all the wrong conclusions; you are averaging out all the innovative songs in these acts' output and this explains your generic presentation. It was from the beginning - unfortunately still remains - a major drawback of your analysis.

 

By using this "first order approximation" you neglect all the innovators of the proto-prog movement, who - by implication - gave us a little progressive music here and there.

 

Instead of continuing this generic approach I suggest you are more specific and present evidence/data in support of your claims. Please provide the documentaion by means of individual songs as this would prove that your list can be turned upside down. I won't bother listing the songs to verify my statement as this thread  obviously is the wrong place to do this.

 

At least you openly admit your ignorance by saying you're only vaguely familiar with the output of these bands. I would have preferred this statement in your opening post.

 

 

I'm the keyboardplayer from Lethe (former romantic progressive band of the early nineties in italy) and during a lot of interviews I was almost obliged to give an explanation regarding my idea of "Progressive Music"...but of course it's a question of labels...with the term "prog (in the sense of progressive attitude)/prog related, usually you mean a different music genre like AOR or Pompous music melodic rock (listen to SUPERTRAMP, Kansas or Asia, or even Toto and Queen), whose music is more accessible, but it can contains some virtuosic elements or other features that you can find usually within the pure progressive music (even though here in a more extended manner)... instead the "pure progressive", sometimes under the language of symphonic rock or symphonic jazz, is actually a mix of several styles, where you can find elements of polyphonic and medieval music or even the music of F. Zappa (listen to After Crying for instance), and the common elements are represented by the extended or long interplays between the instruments, as well as the strong presence of the virtuosic elements and long solos too. Besides here you can find the development of a complex music plot, like the chapters of a novel linked together under a "light-motiv", then growing along with the inspiration of the musician (according to a "work in progress"), which let him gain his own "magic" experience of "plot developer"... but naturally it's more difficult to be understood by the common listener (above all if it's an avant-gard music like that one by Henry Cow for example), in comparison to a more accessible music genre such as the prog related music...nevertheless the progressive rock by early Genesis, Yes and ELP can be easier sometimes and enriched by means of melodic ballads as well...ok I prefer to give you my idea, by indicating all the sub-genres under the label "PROG" in the following lines:

 

 Starting with the explanation concerning the difference among THE ROMANTIC CLASSIC PROG MAIN GENRE (Yes, early Genesis,ELP, Renaissance and Camel), the seminal PROTO-PROG/ART ROCK SUB-GENRE, by Titus Groan,High Tide,Quatermass,King Crimson,Jade Warrior,etc.)going to the modern version of ART ROCK nowadays (Don Caballero,Djam Karet or modern King Crimson- as from “Lark’s Tongue in aspic 2nd era till the 3rd era of “Discipline”, “Beat” and “3 of perfect pair”-), and the most ambitious and difficult sub-genre called NEO CLASSICAL/EXP.SYMPHONIC SUB-GENRE(After Crying,Univers Zero,Solaris,etc.), I remark all that following:

<PROTO-PROG>: it's the seminal prog style, very close to the art rock style, but under the major influence of psichedelic elements (listen for example to Second Hand's "Death may be your Santa Claus"), this genre representing the oldest attempt to bring elements of different styles,which aren't necessarily linked to rock blues and classic rock/hard rock (listen for example to the experimental band -a bit "Led Zeppelin" oriented- High Tide, which adds the violin and some hard pshichedelic colors too) ",trying anyway to perform a new kind of harmonic solutions, sometimes connected to the experimental jazz field (listen for example to Affinity or Audience, while Nice and Quatermass are very poor from this point of view, remaining linked to the classic rock;even though Quatermass stands in this place hardly, because they are much closer to the hard rock style of Deep Purple, by adding only some organ riffs and solos);instead the majority of the classic mellow pop bands of the 70's,these ones sometimes being "light classical music oriented", is often characterized by their reprise of "airs" from J.S.Bach or simple themes from classical music (e.g. Procol Harum,Moody Blues+the already mentioned Nice, and -in some circumstances only- Kayak and Ekseption as well, but avoiding the jazz style !!)

<ART ROCK>: It's the first attempt(late Sixties/Early 70'S)to bring the rock style of the sixties into 70’s music and a new field of exploration as well, trying to create a mix with other styles (Jazz, Electronic, Classic music and the dissonant hard rock as well),often in a very raw manner, in other moments in the pop mellow way of Procul Harum,Moody Blues,Barclay James Harvest,maintaining anyway the typical proto-prog structure of the sixties, where the simple form of rockblues is not erased yet:early King Crimson fits into it!

<ROMANTIC PROG MAIN GENRE>:it’s the first of the "genealogic" list and more accessible as well; it can be sometimes very complex(YES, early GENESIS,ELP, Renaissance in the symphonic vein, with light or complex symphonic elements, also in the traditional folk structure and often in a "theatre-musical" vein , like in the style of ANGE and The Enid):It's the first complete settlement of Prog rock,it can be complex but also captivating and suitable for common people (often the classical suite-structure is dominant-like the Yes symphonies or that one of Renaissance’s Scheherazade;besides in some albums by Camel,who covered also the light canterburian style in "MoonMadness",you can not see many classical structures,apart from “The snow Goose” and “Harbour of tears”,but rather great guitar excursus in a lot of different styles, in the vein of the old Genesis;instead in the case of the band Renaissance,there are also some contaminations between the traditional english folk and the classic music as well, not in the manner- that experimental one - of Gryphon)- Sagrado coracao da terra is inthe middle between the Camel style and the classic prog of YES/ELP (listen to the fugue of the second symphonic side of “Fletcha”)
At last,in this field, there are a couple of diverse sub-genres,those are:

<The Gentle Giant style and thatone by Frank Zappa>

The first one is characterized by the continued contamination between complex vocal renaissance poliphony, medioeval style and experimental Jazz,in a incredible cocktail, which sometimes can be closer to Art rock, in other moments is near chamber music, but avoiding the experimental Canterbury fusion prog of neoclassical/symphonic style(Myrthrandir, Yezda Urfa plus Echolyn of ”Suffocating the bloom” and “As the world” are fine examples, sometimes in a more modern fusion vein, instead Hamadryad are closer to modern prog-metal,but without forgetting the elements of renaissance poliphony).

The second one is characterized by a cocktail of rock, blues, experimental jazz/fusion and theatrical "musicals" as well (see ensembles like that one of Isildur's Bane or sometimes that one already mentioned of After Crying.)

<NEO-CLASSICAL/EXP.SYMPHONIC>: This sub-genre is a step beyond, being more complex and characterized by the contamination of Classic prog, either with chamber music(sometimes with excerpts of medioeval music and renaissance polyphony as well) or classic/jazz fusion style (even with acoustic instrumentation only),without any precise direction or any particular preclusion. It can be sometimes very dark and experimental, in the experimental/symphonic Canterbury vein (Magma and Dun for the experimental side,Minimum Vital and J. Pascal Boffo for the fusion symphonic one, are fine examples,but without forgetting also great bands such as After Crying and Isildurs Bane)"picking" all the tones and colors of musical harmony: for this reason this sub-genre is the most ambitious style

<OTHER STYLES AND THE MODERN ONES>:FUSION PROG, EXPERIMENTAL FOLK PROG, LIGHT FOLK PROG,LIGHT CANTERBURY, CLASSIC EXPERIMENTAL CANTERBURY, DARK PROG, NEW PROGRESSIVE WAVE, PROGRESSIVE POP/POMP, PROGRESSIVE STEEL, AMBIENT, NEW AGE,etc.

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