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jampa17 
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 04 2009
Location: Guatemala
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Points: 6802
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 Posted: February 23 2010 at 08:30 |
 Teaflax wrote:
I realize I'm probably tilting at windmills and fighting a losing battle, but to me DT will never be a Prog band. Not that they haven't written a few songs that might qualify, but on the whole, they're still so clearly in the Metal camp that it really surprises me that there's even an argument about this - especially by people who claim to listen more closely to music than your regular Average Joe.
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You surely are doing it... I don't get your post man... first... it was a non DTfan (Iván) who gave the idea to this poll. Second, do you actually mean that "Progressive ROCK" has nothing to do with rock... really...???  Strange indeed... and now... wether you like DT or not, that's not in discussion... you said that is not about style but about structure and arrangement... I do heard arrangements and structure in DT music... don't you...???
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Change the program inside... Stay in silence is a crime.
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: February 23 2010 at 09:45 |
jampa17 wrote:
Teaflax wrote:
I realize I'm probably tilting at windmills and fighting a losing battle, but to me DT will never be a Prog band. Not that they haven't written a few songs that might qualify, but on the whole, they're still so clearly in the Metal camp that it really surprises me that there's even an argument about this - especially by people who claim to listen more closely to music than your regular Average Joe.
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You surely are doing it... I don't get your post man... first... it was a non DTfan (Iván) who gave the idea to this poll. Second, do you actually mean that "Progressive ROCK" has nothing to do with rock... really...??? Strange indeed... and now... wether you like DT or not, that's not in discussion... you said that is not about style but about structure and arrangement... I do heard arrangements and structure in DT music... don't you...??? |
Don't blame me, I had nothing to do with this poll, some people said no way DT is Prog, I said I was not sure, and seems that more than 1/3 (36.28%) of the members who care enough about DT to votel, believe they are not Prog.
Iván
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - February 23 2010 at 09:48
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Vompatti
Forum Senior Member
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Joined: October 22 2005
Location: elsewhere
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Points: 67407
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Posted: February 23 2010 at 10:07 |
I don't care what it is, I'm not touching it. 
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Raff
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Posted: February 23 2010 at 11:31 |
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OK, I've tried to be nice so far, but now I've got to get it off my chest. For all I care, you can build an altar to DT on the front page, call the site Dream Theater Archives, start ten threads a day about them... Just leave us the freedom to have our doubts as to their progressiveness, without treating us as blasphemers because we dare to think so. Personally, I have my own view of the band, which I don't feel comfortable enough to express here, since being ridiculed does not belong to my favourite forms of entertainment. After all, neither I, nor Ivan, nor anyone else who stated that DT are not fully prog wants to see them kicked off the site.
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Astrapto
Forum Newbie
Joined: January 07 2010
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Points: 37
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Posted: February 24 2010 at 22:15 |
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What is "pog metal"?
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Jesus is real, God and man.
GENERATION 41i: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and subtract 1 from the generation. Social experiment.
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Kashmir75
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 25 2009
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Points: 1029
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Posted: March 01 2010 at 22:21 |
Prog rock is just that: a subgenre of rock. So is metal.
DT are in both camps. I mean, personally, I think its pointless to endlessly label music. It's something that record companies do, so they can work out demographics.
If people were more willing to listen to a band on its own terms and let the music speak for itself, rather than looking for labels (what's a new prog band you can recommend to me?) , the world would be a slightly better place.
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Hello, mirror. So glad to see you, my friend. It's been a while...
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uduwudu
Forum Senior Member
Joined: July 17 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 2601
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Posted: March 01 2010 at 22:59 |
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A band that delieberately sets out to be as complex as possible is not likely to feature in the 2000 Songs that can be played with Three Chords - no matter how much (for comedy reasons alone) I would love to see that.
Anyway is not Prog Rock a sub genre of Art Rock, like it says on the All Music Guide? Or the other way around according to my Jerry Lucky Boys Book of prog Rock?
Prog metal fits, Dream Theatre are (I've only one album) have complex music, themed albums and are about as Top 40 oriented as my socks. The disparity between e.g. Roxy Music and Dream Theatre, sorry, Theater - is really quite vast. Yet this genre allows both allows for quite some variety. Unlike virtyually any other genre of any music anywhere.
Which is what causes all the arguments I suppose. If everyone sounded like Anglagaard then that would be prog (acyually symphonic prog rock,. Sub genre, within a genre alongside other sub genres.
Gotta remember ;laughter (aka The Whistler thread.)
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DangerousCurves
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Joined: July 07 2009
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Posted: March 10 2010 at 11:01 |
Raff wrote:
... Just leave us the freedom to have our doubts as to their progressiveness, without treating us as blasphemers because we dare to think so. Personally, I have my own view of the band, which I don't feel comfortable enough to express here, since being ridiculed does not belong to my favourite forms of entertainment. After all, neither I, nor Ivan, nor anyone else who stated that DT are not fully prog wants to see them kicked off the site. |
What a pity that some fans of the band cannot take a different opinion. I am a huge fan of Dream Theater but far be it from me that I should ever cause somebody to not dare share their opinion of them.
I have always seen them as prog metal but I would also call them prog rock because I see metal as a sub genre of rock.
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progressive
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 08 2005
Location: Finland
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Points: 366
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Posted: March 10 2010 at 11:49 |
Astrapto wrote:
What is "pog metal"?
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It means pop metal.
And to the question: DT is much rock (and prog and metal)
uduwudu wrote:
The disparity between e.g. Roxy Music and Dream Theatre, sorry, Theater - is really quite vast. Yet this genre allows both allows for quite some variety. Unlike virtyually any other genre of any music anywhere.
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Well, prog can be considered as art rock, but anyway I'd say that Roxy music is art rock but not prog (though it's a bit), and Dream Theater is prog but not art rock (though it's a bit).
Edited by progressive - March 10 2010 at 11:57
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Joined: April 27 2004
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Posted: March 10 2010 at 11:52 |
Raff wrote:
OK, I've tried to be nice so far, but now I've got to get it off my chest. For all I care, you can build an altar to DT on the front page, call the site Dream Theater Archives, start ten threads a day about them... Just leave us the freedom to have our doubts as to their progressiveness, without treating us as blasphemers because we dare to think so. Personally, I have my own view of the band, which I don't feel comfortable enough to express here, since being ridiculed does not belong to my favourite forms of entertainment. After all, neither I, nor Ivan, nor anyone else who stated that DT are not fully prog wants to see them kicked off the site. |
It's funny, there's a thread about the worst Prog band ever, and among others this bands have been mentioned:
- Symphony X (My favorite Prog Metal band by miles)
- Focus: One of my top bands
- Meshugah: Not my cup of tea, but have heir fans
- 3eDegree: I rated Narrow Caster with 4 stars
- Supertramp: Has a lot of fans here
- Magma: ????
- Sigur Ros: Don't know them, but have followers
- Can
- Faust
- Amon Duul 2
Did anybody said anything?
Did I made a scandal for Focus and Magma, two of my alltime favoprite bands? Not a word, why should I?
Magma and Focus will remain as two of my favourite bands no matter how many or how few like them, I'm sure enough of my taste to don't care about negative opinions.
But seems some DT fans have a special sensibility and if any person doubts about their Prog credentials, they feel offended and riduicule anybody who dares to doubt.
Please, this is just music, and if you don't like negative opinions, you have chosen the wrong genre with Prog.
Iván
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progressive
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 08 2005
Location: Finland
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Points: 366
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Posted: March 10 2010 at 12:26 |
Ivan_Melgar_M, I think it's because people are unsure if those voters vote DT down only because it's popular... or something like that.
And for those other bands, usually it's somehow clear what makes them a bit "disgusting". Even for the fans maybe. Or maybe those other fans don't think their idols' music is so "good prog".
For example, Magma is one of my favourite bands, and everyone should like them - but I understand that many people don't like it because... well, you know.
Same for Symphony X for example. I can consider it as one of my favorites, but anyway I could vote against it, because there's so much "bad" elements, too.
You can easily argue that Supertramp, Sigur Rós, Can and Faust aren't prog at all. So no need to complain.
The thing with DT might be bot the pop elements and the "soulless" technical showing off. But both can be easily misunderstood.
Pop: 1. I understand if some people don't like for example the sound of "soft" pop, or for example ballads. 2. A little harder is to understand why people don't like it because "pop is bad", even if it was clearly prog at the same time. 3. And I think it's even totally unacceptable to consider DT bad because it's popular.
Show-off: 1. I don't like people who don't like overwhelmingly complex music, but to some extent, I understand them. 2. Ok, let's say the disliker loves complex music, but he/she wants it to be more "art"... I think art is for posers. But anyway, cheesy showing off makes it less art? Like ELP? If you want soul of subtle art, go listen to simple stuff. 3. It's annoying that dislikers say "I appreciate them as technical musicians". It sounds like a poser, because the fans usually don't even appreciate the musicianship, but the music.
Well, there's many arguments that I didn't mention, but I think there's so much to discuss more about, to get clear if the opposite really understands and even tries to like DT.
And maybe it's also because DT has more fans here. Or maybe it's only your illusion that DT fans are more enthusiastic.
For example, Sigur Rós is quite new here and... Supertramp.. maybe their fans are just simple people who don't like to post anything? (I don't mean that I think so)
Or maybe it's because there really is much more disliking for DT than to those bands. And why is that, if for example now one even listens to let's say Magma...which clearly says that people don't like it (= if the band is unpopular, people don't like it :PP). That's because DT is popular. That's why there's much discussion, any kind of discussion - disliking, appreciation, song voting... And let's get back to Supertramp... would it be unappreciated if it was currently popular? It really isn't popular.
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Negoba
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 24 2008
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Posted: March 10 2010 at 12:40 |
Dream Theater are neo-classical power prog metal catering mostly to the shredder demographic but have also appealed to tradition prog fans looking into new styles.
Shall we split hairs even further? This could be fun.
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You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all.
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progressive
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 08 2005
Location: Finland
Status: Offline
Points: 366
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Posted: March 10 2010 at 13:00 |
Yes, let's split hairs, though it's not very fun. It's necessary and emerges many kinds of discussion, even fun discussion, so sometimes it's fun. But bad/stupid things are not so fun, I mean laughing _at_ isn't very good for anybody.
DT are a bit neo-classical and power metal, but very little, though neo-classical is hard to define. But where's the power metal parts? I can imagine some, but there's not much fast and/or stereotypical things that power metal has.
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Joined: April 27 2004
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Posted: March 10 2010 at 13:11 |
progressive wrote:
Ivan_Melgar_M, I think it's because people are unsure if those voters vote DT down only because it's popular... or something like that.
And for those other bands, usually it's somehow clear what makes them a bit "disgusting". Even for the fans maybe. Or maybe those other fans don't think their idols' music is so "good prog".
For example, Magma is one of my favourite bands, and everyone should like them - but I understand that many people don't like it because... well, you know.
Same for Symphony X for example. I can consider it as one of my favorites, but anyway I could vote against it, because there's so much "bad" elements, too.
You can easily argue that Supertramp, Sigur Rós, Can and Faust aren't prog at all. So no need to complain.
The thing with DT might be bot the pop elements and the "soulless" technical showing off. But both can be easily misunderstood.
Pop: 1. I understand if some people don't like for example the sound of "soft" pop, or for example ballads. 2. A little harder is to understand why people don't like it because "pop is bad", even if it was clearly prog at the same time. 3. And I think it's even totally unacceptable to consider DT bad because it's popular.
Show-off: 1. I don't like people who don't like overwhelmingly complex music, but to some extent, I understand them. 2. Ok, let's say the disliker loves complex music, but he/she wants it to be more "art"... I think art is for posers. But anyway, cheesy showing off makes it less art? Like ELP? If you want soul of subtle art, go listen to simple stuff. 3. It's annoying that dislikers say "I appreciate them as technical musicians". It sounds like a poser, because the fans usually don't even appreciate the musicianship, but the music.
Well, there's many arguments that I didn't mention, but I think there's so much to discuss more about, to get clear if the opposite really understands and even tries to like DT.
And maybe it's also because DT has more fans here. Or maybe it's only your illusion that DT fans are more enthusiastic.
For example, Sigur Rós is quite new here and... Supertramp.. maybe their fans are just simple people who don't like to post anything? (I don't mean that I think so)
Or maybe it's because there really is much more disliking for DT than to those bands. And why is that, if for example now one even listens to let's say Magma...which clearly says that people don't like it (= if the band is unpopular, people don't like it :PP). That's because DT is popular. That's why there's much discussion, any kind of discussion - disliking, appreciation, song voting... And let's get back to Supertramp... would it be unappreciated if it was currently popular? It really isn't popular. |
The reasons don't matter for some, I gave my arguments why I don't believe DT is more than a Metal band with some Prog elements and it was worst.
If you start a poll asking if DT is a legend or Prog...Then you should be ready to receive yes and no replies, if you are not ready, then don't do it....I'm sure that if I ask about Genesis, some will reply they were crap.
But believe me, popularity has nothing to do with the opinion, Pink Floyd is much more popular and only very few believe they are not Prog, the same with Kansas, yes they had a POP/Christian Rock era but the albums with higher ratings are precisely those from their most popular era (Leftoverture and POKR).
And at the end...WHAT THE HELL IF PEOPLE DON'T AGREE WITH YOU OR ME!!!!!!!
If people don't believe DT is Prog for whatever reason they have, it doesn't affect your love for the band's music and that's the only thing tha should matter, people are allowed to have an opinion and voice it in a discussion forum.
f I don't give a damn if somebody says Magma is crap or Focus is the worst Prog band ever (without giving any argument), no DT fan should get angry because I believe they are not more than a Metal band with some Prog elements,
I got my tickets for their concert this month, but I will never believe they are 100% Prog band as Gabriel Genesis, Yes until Drama, Magma during all their career or several new bands like Factor Burzaco (one of the weirdest Avant bands I ever heard) or 5Bridges.
Iván
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Negoba
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 24 2008
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Posted: March 10 2010 at 13:16 |
Dream Theater emerged from the (at the time) very popular neo-classical fusion movement (actually just a shredder movement, but that was what they called themselves at the time) and did something almost unheard of, tried to have all five players take equal footing. While Yngwie Malmsteen had been willing to duel with the Johansson brothers, most shredder records were a one-man (very occasionally woman) show. DT were a band straight out of the Mike Varney play book. Pertucci was (and is) a hybrid of Vai and Malmsteen, as were a host of guitarists before him.
If you're going to show off a virtuosic drummer, complex time signatures have to be involved. By the time time Kevin Moore added in his atmospheric glue, prog metal as we know it was forged.
What I'm trying to say is that DT were not born of the prog movement, they sidestepped into it. It was a fairly natural step, but they are the children of Iron Maiden, Vai, Malmsteen. Certainly to some extent Rush. They are not the children of Yes or Genesis or even Marillion.
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You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all.
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The T
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Posted: March 10 2010 at 13:36 |
All of this can be better discussed under the light of Progressive's now famous, immortal phrase:
"If you don't even know what math rock is, please go away".
So if you two people or anybody else don't agree with him, please do yourselves and us a favor and disappear... You shall not dare to disagree with Progressive. After all, his nickname is as prog as it gets...
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Negoba
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 24 2008
Location: Big Muddy
Status: Offline
Points: 5208
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Posted: March 10 2010 at 13:59 |
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I think you missed some of the f'd up grammar in the original quote.
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You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all.
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The T
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Posted: March 10 2010 at 14:14 |
You're right... I'll correct myself. So, Ivan, Negoba, and all of you Progressive's naysayers:
If you don't even know what is math rock, please go away
Edited by The T - March 10 2010 at 14:15
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: March 10 2010 at 15:28 |
I hope this is a joke T,
I don't know what's the relation between Math Rock and a metal band with some Prog leanings (Of course IMHO) or why is Math Rock so transcendental.
I woudn't join a Math Rock thread because except for Don Caballero, I know very little, but the knowledge of one sub-genre doesn't have relation with your knowledge of Prog as a whole.
Iván
EDIT: OK I read the Math Rock quote and your correct comment.
Maybe I have a problem because I don't know much or care about Math Rock. 
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - March 10 2010 at 15:47
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lucas
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Posted: March 10 2010 at 15:48 |
If Dream Theater are not prog metal, what are they ?
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"Magma was the very first gothic rock band" (Didier Lockwood)
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Dream Theater - Prog or not?
