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J-Man View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 18 2010 at 20:45
Originally posted by The Quiet One The Quiet One wrote:

^like I said, I do like ELP but they're not my favorite Symphonic Prog band at all, I would take to my desert island any Genesis, Camel and Yes albums before an ELP one. Still, I consider them a grandiose trio with a lot potential, but they unfortunately couldn't make, imo, a good album from the beggining to the end. 


What album's your favorite?

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 18 2010 at 20:45
I don't get what all the fuss is about, WHO IS DREAM THEATER? Confused
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
(Just Kidding Clown)
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 18 2010 at 20:46
Originally posted by J-Man J-Man wrote:

Originally posted by The Quiet One The Quiet One wrote:

^lol, I don't love any of the two, but I enjoy both in certain doses nonetheless. 


I love the "concept" of ELP's music, if that makes any sense.

The musicianship is fantastic.

Keith Emerson is one of the all-time greatest keyboard players.

The solos are excellent.


....

But the songwriting is way below my standards. When I'm in the mood for Hammond Organ, ELP will always come on, but I always feel like something's missing. Most of the compositions are just scattered and lacking in coherence IMO. I love extended soloing (as evidenced by my DT obsession), but for ELP it just never gets anywhere.

Sorry for going even further off topic LOL

I tend to agree with those points. ELP did write some fantastic songs however, but they just couldn't make that in an entire album. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 18 2010 at 20:47
Originally posted by J-Man J-Man wrote:

Originally posted by The Quiet One The Quiet One wrote:

^like I said, I do like ELP but they're not my favorite Symphonic Prog band at all, I would take to my desert island any Genesis, Camel and Yes albums before an ELP one. Still, I consider them a grandiose trio with a lot potential, but they unfortunately couldn't make, imo, a good album from the beggining to the end. 


What album's your favorite?

We share the same favorite ELP album, Jeff: Trilogy. And it's surely because of the same reason. 

Today is our agreement day, huh?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 18 2010 at 20:47
Originally posted by Finnforest Finnforest wrote:

Scott, I can assure you there's much more to RPI than a bunch of ELP clones.  Or clones of anyone for that matter.  Maybe that's not what you meant.....Smile   The English certainly influenced RPI, particularly VDGG I would say, but there's more to it.  Calling them clones is not accurate. 
Somehow I had a feeling that would trigger your radar.  I am not inferring that all of RPI is ELP clones.  It is just previous conversation I had with Micky where he was trying to convert me to RPI he mentioned bands that had the ELP sound, and that was what I was referring to.  And ew...if VDGG is their influence it will be a lot longer time before I check RPI out. LOL
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 18 2010 at 20:50
Originally posted by rushfan4 rushfan4 wrote:

Originally posted by Finnforest Finnforest wrote:

Scott, I can assure you there's much more to RPI than a bunch of ELP clones.  Or clones of anyone for that matter.  Maybe that's not what you meant.....Smile   The English certainly influenced RPI, particularly VDGG I would say, but there's more to it.  Calling them clones is not accurate. 
Somehow I had a feeling that would trigger your radar.  I am not inferring that all of RPI is ELP clones.  It is just previous conversation I had with Micky where he was trying to convert me to RPI he mentioned bands that had the ELP sound, and that was what I was referring to.  And ew...if VDGG is their influence it will be a lot longer time before I check RPI out. LOL



I was trying SO hard not to get sucked into this thread.....and they finally lure me in with RPI talkLOL

Thanks for the reply, I thought perhaps you didn't mean it that way. 

Yeah, VDGG is a huge influence on the "difficult" branch of RPI, but there are "pretty" RPI bands too.  But I won't go off-topic.  Cheers!Tongue
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 18 2010 at 20:52
Originally posted by J-Man J-Man wrote:

Originally posted by rushfan4 rushfan4 wrote:

Originally posted by J-Man J-Man wrote:

Originally posted by rushfan4 rushfan4 wrote:

Originally posted by micky micky wrote:

thanks Scott...  I was knocked on my ass for more than a few days.  That is what I get for parading around in work in short sleeves still thinking I was in Marquette LOL

acclaimed?  well.. in the spirit of Ivan...  let's break that down... 

remember a particular review of one of their legendary albums..

a challenge... find a legendary prog album that has had this written about it.  Not by twits ..but by collabs with decades and decades of prog listening experience...

'The lackluster narrative is presented with artless exposition; they've compromised between using lyrics that fit the song and fitting the music to the story, and as a result everything sounds contrived.'

'I find listening to this CD to be just a little more enjoyable than viewing images of endless Middle Eastern atrocities, or reading the gruesome details of the latest killings by some gun-toting psychopath.'

'SPEECHLESS'

'Not a masterpiece - and not Prog - just long'

'The musicianship is extremely competent but for every good idea (and there are some) there is one equally crass and stupid'

'I can honestly think of few albums as tedious to listen to as Dream Theater's "magnum-opus" '


sorry...  that isn't legendary... unless you want to talk polarizing... and that... fades to nothing when they finally retire. DT is a popular group... and has lots that loathe it.  Nothing more.. nothing less.  That does not make something legendary... it makes them polarizing.  If DT had invented the prog equilvalent of the wheel.. that would be saying something.. since they haven't.  well.. they haven't.  What then makes something legendary..  one of the first thing is standing the test of time.  Considering half the prog audience can't stand this group.. and many that do like them most likely will hard pressed to remember them in 10 years.. 20 years...  I do have my doubts as to being legendary.. or ever approaching that status.


If you would like to attach names to those quotes I could probably break each one of them down as what they are.  Yeah if Ivan said this,  Or Sean Trane said that.  Or you or Raff said the other things, they perfectly make sense because you all dislike DT for your own various reason.  My opinions of these are 100% the exact opposite.  I would much rather listen to an album like Scenes From A Memory which makes perfect sense than I would a classic like Lamb Lies Down which makes absolutely no sense.  The only thing that seems to make sense in that one is that at one point he is swimming in a sea of cut-off penises that are then eaten by the things in the water with them and it poisons them.  I'm sorry but I would much rather a ghost story about a murder that took place in the pass than a story about chopped off penises.  And yet, Genesis and the Lamb are legendary. Dead  And by the way, most of your comments regarding Genesis would be similar because as I recall you consider them to be a real snooze fest.
 
What I really, really don't understand is how you can be such a big fan of ELP and yet hate Dream Theater.  Dream Theater are easily the rightful heir to what ELP was doing in the 70's.  (I can't speak regarding all of ELP's RPI clones since I haven't started listening to that pasta prog yet). Wink


I can relate to the ELP and DT thing. I absolutely love DT, but I dislike most ELP albums (though I moderately enjoy BSS, Trilogy, and Tarkus).
I hate to pull the age card, but I find very few PAers under 30 who like ELP, aside from maybe 1 album or 2.  There will be those who like their debut and nothing else or Tarkus and nothing else, but most of the younger members seem to hate ELP. 

*ducks* as every unusual case will now respond that they are under 30 and like ELP*



I'm confident that's not it. How many teenage kids do you know that would rather listen to Genesis, Yes, Rush, Dream Theater, Marillion, Neal Morse, and The Flower Kings instead of Miley Cyrus, Britney Spears, and Eminem?

Not that many. It's just that I'm not crazy about ELP (neither is my dad, who's in his 40's Wink)
I am not trying to denigrate your tastes because of your youth.  I honestly don't think that ELP aged very well.  I'm just saying that most of the younger generation that I have interacted with here on PA don't seem to like ELP.  Probably because you have already heard it all before with bands like DT. 

I can't truly disagree with Pablo either.  They do seem to have some lesser songs on each of their albums to go with their best works.  But you know, so does classic Genesis, King Crimson, Jethro Tull, Yes, and Pink Floyd. 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 18 2010 at 20:53
Originally posted by The Quiet One The Quiet One wrote:

Originally posted by J-Man J-Man wrote:

Originally posted by The Quiet One The Quiet One wrote:

^like I said, I do like ELP but they're not my favorite Symphonic Prog band at all, I would take to my desert island any Genesis, Camel and Yes albums before an ELP one. Still, I consider them a grandiose trio with a lot potential, but they unfortunately couldn't make, imo, a good album from the beggining to the end. 


What album's your favorite?

We share the same favorite ELP album, Jeff: Trilogy. And it's surely because of the same reason. 

Today is our agreement day, huh?


Mine's either Trilogy or Tarkus (probably the latter). Both of them probably 3.5 star albums for me, though.

Oh, and it's not our agreement day until you admit your love to SFAM Tongue LOL

Cheers,
Jeff

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 18 2010 at 20:55
Originally posted by micky micky wrote:

thanks Scott...  I was knocked on my ass for more than a few days.  That is what I get for parading around in work in short sleeves still thinking I was in Marquette LOL

acclaimed?  well.. in the spirit of Ivan...  let's break that down... 

remember a particular review of one of their legendary albums..

a challenge... find a legendary prog album that has had this written about it.  Not by twits ..but by collabs with decades and decades of prog listening experience...

'The lackluster narrative is presented with artless exposition; they've compromised between using lyrics that fit the song and fitting the music to the story, and as a result everything sounds contrived.'

'I find listening to this CD to be just a little more enjoyable than viewing images of endless Middle Eastern atrocities, or reading the gruesome details of the latest killings by some gun-toting psychopath.'

'SPEECHLESS'

'Not a masterpiece - and not Prog - just long'

'The musicianship is extremely competent but for every good idea (and there are some) there is one equally crass and stupid'

'I can honestly think of few albums as tedious to listen to as Dream Theater's "magnum-opus" '


sorry...  that isn't legendary... unless you want to talk polarizing... and that... fades to nothing when they finally retire. DT is a popular group... and has lots that loathe it.  Nothing more.. nothing less.  That does not make something legendary... it makes them polarizing.  If DT had invented the prog equilvalent of the wheel.. that would be saying something.. since they haven't.  well.. they haven't.  What then makes something legendary..  one of the first thing is standing the test of time.  Considering half the prog audience can't stand this group.. and many that do like them most likely will hard pressed to remember them in 10 years.. 20 years...  I do have my doubts as to being legendary.. or ever approaching that status

You're being ridiculous. Why are the requirements of our collab process the only thing that makes a "true" listener that actually matters in the declaration of a "classic"? In fact, why does a classic prog album even have to be for somebody who's been listening to prog since '72? Tastes change. I'm sure quite a few people here could take an axe to some classic albums (pretend I also linked all of greenback's reviews that trashed kraut), especially since everybody who doesn't like ITCOTCK or most other top 10 albums bumps it up to a three for "historical importance", but they don't bother to because: there's no point since people will buy it anyway since everybody else likes it, and you don't get to snicker about your silly hyperbolic comparisons with your collab buddies afterwards because saying CTTE is boring is not socially acceptable around here.



Edited by Henry Plainview - February 18 2010 at 20:58
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 18 2010 at 20:56
Originally posted by J-Man J-Man wrote:

Originally posted by The Quiet One The Quiet One wrote:

Originally posted by J-Man J-Man wrote:

Originally posted by The Quiet One The Quiet One wrote:

^like I said, I do like ELP but they're not my favorite Symphonic Prog band at all, I would take to my desert island any Genesis, Camel and Yes albums before an ELP one. Still, I consider them a grandiose trio with a lot potential, but they unfortunately couldn't make, imo, a good album from the beggining to the end. 


What album's your favorite?

We share the same favorite ELP album, Jeff: Trilogy. And it's surely because of the same reason. 

Today is our agreement day, huh?


Mine's either Trilogy or Tarkus (probably the latter). Both of them probably 3.5 star albums for me, though.

Oh, and it's not our agreement day until you admit your love to SFAM Tongue LOL

Cheers,
Jeff

Trilogy for me is a 4 stars. Tarkus maybe a 4 due to the epic, but not sure. 

I did edit my review of SFAM, upgrade it to a 3. I don't love it, but I like that a lot of their latter works have songs that are similar in style to SFAM, so I made-up a fictional SFAM with the best songs from the Rudess-era, that of course share the same style. Weird, eh?Embarrassed
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 18 2010 at 20:59
Originally posted by rushfan4 rushfan4 wrote:

Originally posted by J-Man J-Man wrote:

Originally posted by rushfan4 rushfan4 wrote:

Originally posted by J-Man J-Man wrote:

Originally posted by rushfan4 rushfan4 wrote:

Originally posted by micky micky wrote:

thanks Scott...  I was knocked on my ass for more than a few days.  That is what I get for parading around in work in short sleeves still thinking I was in Marquette LOL

acclaimed?  well.. in the spirit of Ivan...  let's break that down... 

remember a particular review of one of their legendary albums..

a challenge... find a legendary prog album that has had this written about it.  Not by twits ..but by collabs with decades and decades of prog listening experience...

'The lackluster narrative is presented with artless exposition; they've compromised between using lyrics that fit the song and fitting the music to the story, and as a result everything sounds contrived.'

'I find listening to this CD to be just a little more enjoyable than viewing images of endless Middle Eastern atrocities, or reading the gruesome details of the latest killings by some gun-toting psychopath.'

'SPEECHLESS'

'Not a masterpiece - and not Prog - just long'

'The musicianship is extremely competent but for every good idea (and there are some) there is one equally crass and stupid'

'I can honestly think of few albums as tedious to listen to as Dream Theater's "magnum-opus" '


sorry...  that isn't legendary... unless you want to talk polarizing... and that... fades to nothing when they finally retire. DT is a popular group... and has lots that loathe it.  Nothing more.. nothing less.  That does not make something legendary... it makes them polarizing.  If DT had invented the prog equilvalent of the wheel.. that would be saying something.. since they haven't.  well.. they haven't.  What then makes something legendary..  one of the first thing is standing the test of time.  Considering half the prog audience can't stand this group.. and many that do like them most likely will hard pressed to remember them in 10 years.. 20 years...  I do have my doubts as to being legendary.. or ever approaching that status.


If you would like to attach names to those quotes I could probably break each one of them down as what they are.  Yeah if Ivan said this,  Or Sean Trane said that.  Or you or Raff said the other things, they perfectly make sense because you all dislike DT for your own various reason.  My opinions of these are 100% the exact opposite.  I would much rather listen to an album like Scenes From A Memory which makes perfect sense than I would a classic like Lamb Lies Down which makes absolutely no sense.  The only thing that seems to make sense in that one is that at one point he is swimming in a sea of cut-off penises that are then eaten by the things in the water with them and it poisons them.  I'm sorry but I would much rather a ghost story about a murder that took place in the pass than a story about chopped off penises.  And yet, Genesis and the Lamb are legendary. Dead  And by the way, most of your comments regarding Genesis would be similar because as I recall you consider them to be a real snooze fest.
 
What I really, really don't understand is how you can be such a big fan of ELP and yet hate Dream Theater.  Dream Theater are easily the rightful heir to what ELP was doing in the 70's.  (I can't speak regarding all of ELP's RPI clones since I haven't started listening to that pasta prog yet). Wink


I can relate to the ELP and DT thing. I absolutely love DT, but I dislike most ELP albums (though I moderately enjoy BSS, Trilogy, and Tarkus).
I hate to pull the age card, but I find very few PAers under 30 who like ELP, aside from maybe 1 album or 2.  There will be those who like their debut and nothing else or Tarkus and nothing else, but most of the younger members seem to hate ELP. 

*ducks* as every unusual case will now respond that they are under 30 and like ELP*



I'm confident that's not it. How many teenage kids do you know that would rather listen to Genesis, Yes, Rush, Dream Theater, Marillion, Neal Morse, and The Flower Kings instead of Miley Cyrus, Britney Spears, and Eminem?

Not that many. It's just that I'm not crazy about ELP (neither is my dad, who's in his 40's Wink)
I am not trying to denigrate your tastes because of your youth.  I honestly don't think that ELP aged very well.  I'm just saying that most of the younger generation that I have interacted with here on PA don't seem to like ELP.  Probably because you have already heard it all before with bands like DT. 

I can't truly disagree with Pablo either.  They do seem to have some lesser songs on each of their albums to go with their best works.  But you know, so does classic Genesis, King Crimson, Jethro Tull, Yes, and Pink Floyd. 



You definitely have a point there. I've heard some jamming that can easily blow ELP away, whereas the people in that generation had never heard that prior to hearing ELP.

I agree with the aging issue as well. All of the albums from that era have aged, but this allows us to see which albums remain gems, and which albums become weaker with time. Selling England By The Pound sounds even more brilliant after hearing so many generic neo-prog albums trying to re-create that album. ELP's debut only sounds like a second rate version of modern symphonic rock bands IMO. Sorry to offend any die-hard ELP fans out there! Smile

-Jeff

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 18 2010 at 21:06
Originally posted by The Quiet One The Quiet One wrote:

Originally posted by J-Man J-Man wrote:

Originally posted by The Quiet One The Quiet One wrote:

Originally posted by J-Man J-Man wrote:

Originally posted by The Quiet One The Quiet One wrote:

^like I said, I do like ELP but they're not my favorite Symphonic Prog band at all, I would take to my desert island any Genesis, Camel and Yes albums before an ELP one. Still, I consider them a grandiose trio with a lot potential, but they unfortunately couldn't make, imo, a good album from the beggining to the end. 


What album's your favorite?

We share the same favorite ELP album, Jeff: Trilogy. And it's surely because of the same reason. 

Today is our agreement day, huh?


Mine's either Trilogy or Tarkus (probably the latter). Both of them probably 3.5 star albums for me, though.

Oh, and it's not our agreement day until you admit your love to SFAM Tongue LOL

Cheers,
Jeff

Trilogy for me is a 4 stars. Tarkus maybe a 4 due to the epic, but not sure. 

I did edit my review of SFAM, upgrade it to a 3. I don't love it, but I like that a lot of their latter works have songs that are similar in style to SFAM, so I made-up a fictional SFAM with the best songs from the Rudess-era, that of course share the same style. Weird, eh?Embarrassed


I actually noticed the upgrade from a 2 to a 3, and I think that's pretty fair, understanding your tastes.

On an unrelated note, you've probably noticed that I've been listening to a lot of Zappa albums lately, and knowing the Zappa fan you are, I figured I'd let you know what I plan on giving those albums I've been listening to lately:

Over-Nite Sensation - 4 (almost a 5)
We're Only In It For The Money - 4 (the last song drops it a star)
Freak Out! - 2
Absolutely Free - 4
Joe's Garage - 3.5
Hot Rats - 4
One Size Fits All - 4
Uncle Meat - 3

Big smile

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 18 2010 at 21:07
^lol, we're getting OFF-TOPIC completely...

Let's leave it like this until Micky replies.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 18 2010 at 21:10
Originally posted by The Quiet One The Quiet One wrote:

^lol, we're getting OFF-TOPIC completely...

Let's leave it like this until Micky replies.


LOL Sure!

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 18 2010 at 21:18
Micky won't reply.  He's curled up like a ball in the corner of his bedroom trembling in fear at the gang-like beating that he is incurring in this thread.  He will be having nightmares tonight of hordes of pimply faced teens standing outside his home with flames and pitchforks. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 18 2010 at 21:21
Originally posted by rushfan4 rushfan4 wrote:

Micky won't reply.  He's curled up like a ball in the corner of his bedroom trembling in fear at the gang-like beating that he is incurring in this thread.  He will be having nightmares tonight of hordes of pimply faced teens standing outside his home with flames and pitchforks. 


And I'll be one of them! LOL

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 18 2010 at 21:27
Originally posted by J-Man J-Man wrote:

Originally posted by rushfan4 rushfan4 wrote:

Micky won't reply.  He's curled up like a ball in the corner of his bedroom trembling in fear at the gang-like beating that he is incurring in this thread.  He will be having nightmares tonight of hordes of pimply faced teens standing outside his home with flames and pitchforks. 


And I'll be one of them! LOL

Me too!LOL 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 18 2010 at 21:35
I'm still one at heart.  I even had a pimple grow on my nose the other day. Angry  WTF?  I'm too old for that sh*t.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 18 2010 at 21:41
W.r.t Micky's comment that prog legends don't get the kind of polarizing opinions that DT do and that there's supposedly a consensus that these bands/albums deserve their legendary status:

progrules on Free Hand:

"why does a band that is so talented (at least I agree about that) need to play their music in such a daft way."

IvanMeglarM on Larks Tongue In Aspic :

"Larks Tongues in Aspic Part I" sounds to me as a as five guys playing their instruments randomly without any sense of melody, some guitar sections have some meaning, but the rest is simply cacophony. It's clear that Fripp, Cross, Wetton, Muir and Bruford are outstanding musicians, but the lack of melody just eliminates me as a fan."

ProgLeviathan on Lamb Lies Down on Broadway:

"There are lots of empty spaces, and the spaces which are filled don't seem to accomplish much other than indulge the group's pretention. This is harder to get through than a 10-minute ELP organ solo."

kenneththelevine on Brain Salad Surgery:

"here we have virtually non stop histrionics and grandstanding that helped to epitomize what a few loved but most hated about progressive rock, even some of its biggest fans. The absolute low point is Lake disingenuously screeching something about "rock n roll", as if to say, hey we're elite intellectuals but we still have machismo. "

All PR and Collab reviews, didn't quote guest reviews.  There's room for disagreement, obviously, even on the subject of the 'holy cows'.  So polarized opinions don't really prove anything. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 19 2010 at 02:03
Originally posted by Windhawk Windhawk wrote:

I'm amazed that there still are people so conservative and regressive in their musical tastes that they don't ackowledge progressive metal as a part of the prog rock universe.


I fully accept progressive metal as part of the prog rock universe... so long as they play nice and quietly, preferably using double necked guitars and Mellotrons; the musicians (all of whom should sport vast amounts of facial hair) involved should also remain seated at all times and look serious - apart from that is the vocalist (who should of course be ex-public school) who may stand occasionally



Oh by the way, I quite like older Dream Theater material

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