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Topic ClosedDT... already a prog legend?

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The Quiet One View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 17 2010 at 18:26
Hahaha, I love it when people get childish.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 17 2010 at 18:30
It would be childish to say "I know you don't want Prog Metal in your site, so we will leave", giving arguments to what you say is not.
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 17 2010 at 18:35
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

It would be childish to say "I know you don't want Prog Metal in your site, so we will leave", giving arguments to what you say is not.
 
Iván


Iván, Pablo's not picking on you individually. This has been a 10 page circular discussion, filled with arguing, fanboyism, and misinterpretations. I'm positive he's not just referring to you Wink

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 17 2010 at 18:53

LOL Not only to me Wink

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 17 2010 at 18:55
If anyone is wondering what this thread is about, lemme clarify it for you




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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 17 2010 at 18:56
Originally posted by CCVP CCVP wrote:

If anyone is wondering what this thread is about, lemme clarify it for you






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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 17 2010 at 19:04


now this is what PA's is.. or rather what it used to be before the lunatics took over the asylum haha...and you all wonder why I want to meet Ivan so badly.... the man is a laugh a minute.   The site isn't the same without him terrorizing threads and drowning those of lesser intelect in a sea of blue font.

those were the days...
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 17 2010 at 21:25
I leave the Prog Archives for 24 hours, and I come back to find chaos has broken loose! And in a DT thread! Why am I not surprised? Wink

This website isn't called the Yes/King Crimson/Genesis Appreciation Society, it's called the Prog Archives. There's room here for prog lovers of all stripes. Elitism and name-calling is one of the reasons I am sometimes too scared to come in here, and post on here. Purists would have you believe that good music stopped being recorded after 1980. I mean, I like the classic prog bands, but enough is enough. There's no need to bash DT fans. 

DT have every right to be called a prog legend. They've worked hard over the past twenty years, battled against an uncaring mainstream and against fashion and pop culture trends. The photo recently of Rick Wakeman and Mike Portnoy at the Classic Rock awards cemented it all for me. If that's not a sign of their respect in the Prog world, what is? They'll probably never be respected by the metal fraternity (where they are still treated with some suspicion), so why not here?
Hello, mirror. So glad to see you, my friend. It's been a while...
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 17 2010 at 23:23
Originally posted by Kashmir75 Kashmir75 wrote:

I leave the Prog Archives for 24 hours, and I come back to find chaos has broken loose! And in a DT thread! Why am I not surprised? Wink

This website isn't called the Yes/King Crimson/Genesis Appreciation Society, it's called the Prog Archives. There's room here for prog lovers of all stripes. Elitism and name-calling is one of the reasons I am sometimes too scared to come in here, and post on here. Purists would have you believe that good music stopped being recorded after 1980. I mean, I like the classic prog bands, but enough is enough. There's no need to bash DT fans. 

DT have every right to be called a prog legend. They've worked hard over the past twenty years, battled against an uncaring mainstream and against fashion and pop culture trends. The photo recently of Rick Wakeman and Mike Portnoy at the Classic Rock awards cemented it all for me. If that's not a sign of their respect in the Prog world, what is? They'll probably never be respected by the metal fraternity (where they are still treated with some suspicion), so why not here?
 
The problem here is that if any member asks a question, he must be ready to listen two possible answers: Yes or No.
 
If you don't want to receive an answer you don't like, then don't ask a question.
 
This is not a fan club, this is a DISCUSSION FORUM, a place where you come to DEBATE, if some people  are not ready to listen opinions they don't like, well, don't come.
 
I been called names, something I haven't done, I gave my opinion and my answer to the question,  I stand on it.
 
Nobody has bashed DT fans at all, simply some of us don't agree with the opinion that DT is a legend of Progressive Rock, live with this.
 
Iván
 
 


Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - February 18 2010 at 08:49
            
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 18 2010 at 02:07
Originally posted by Kashmir75 Kashmir75 wrote:

I leave the Prog Archives for 24 hours, and I come back to find chaos has broken loose! And in a DT thread! Why am I not surprised? Wink

This website isn't called the Yes/King Crimson/Genesis Appreciation Society, it's called the Prog Archives. There's room here for prog lovers of all stripes. Elitism and name-calling is one of the reasons I am sometimes too scared to come in here, and post on here. Purists would have you believe that good music stopped being recorded after 1980. I mean, I like the classic prog bands, but enough is enough. There's no need to bash DT fans. 

DT have every right to be called a prog legend. They've worked hard over the past twenty years, battled against an uncaring mainstream and against fashion and pop culture trends. The photo recently of Rick Wakeman and Mike Portnoy at the Classic Rock awards cemented it all for me. If that's not a sign of their respect in the Prog world, what is? They'll probably never be respected by the metal fraternity (where they are still treated with some suspicion), so why not here?


If you're too scared to visit a music forum and post there I think you need to get out more.Wink Seriously though, DT threads are notorious for getting heckles to rise within the community as they are just one of those bands that never seem to attract indifference (For me that's their single most redeeming feature)
I happen to empathise with Ivan's general view and although I have only heard about a third of the band's output, they've never once convinced me of immutable prog credentials (apart from some of their their covers of other band's material) I'm certainly not a metal fan but am happy to acknowledge the prog status of the likes of Opeth, Liquid Tension Experiment, Maudlin of the Well, Diablo Swing Orchestra, Borknagar (cos those are the few I'm familiar with)
Going back to my earlier post I was advised by Windhawk that this thread is not about likes and dislikes but concerned with 'musical understanding and perception' i.e. that tired and frayed old trump card that some people play that posits if you don't agree with the proposition, you do so by virtue of lack of understanding, objectivity and bringing your own tastes into play. Presumably if sufficient numbers hold the same opinion the latter miraculously mutates into fact ?
It also seems odd that you consider defining proof of the proposition the endorsement of a musician who has failed to release a single note worth a second of anyone's time for the last 30 years (Rick Wakeman - unless you count the new age Christian blancmange, the disingenuous fleecing of the Yes canon, bandwagon hopping faux new wave and the collaborations with Norman Wisdom of course)

I've never had a false nostalgia for the halycon 70's prog years and I too agree that great music continues to be produced post 1980 as you state. However, much of what I hear of contemporary music that attracts the prog label (of many genres) strikes me as being merely a reproduction of the ideas and values that cannot surely still be considered progressive 30 years hence ? It seems a no-brainer that as far as pushing metal into progressive related areas, DT are a virtual shoo-in re legendary status but all I can hear is technical complexity, speed, mediocre song-writing, virtuoso riffs and shallow lyrics* (*1 out of 5 don't make ya prog)

Please accept my apologies for being sincere.Big smile



Edited by ExittheLemming - February 18 2010 at 02:55
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 18 2010 at 08:41
I was 21 when Images and Words hit the shelves.
Back then they were hailed by everybody as prog-metal pioneers and kings. And they were quickly regarded as legends, in the same way that Marillion were legendary a decade earlier.

Now if enough people (press) start saying you are a legend then you become one. That's how I think it works. You aren't a legend, it's people that make you a legend.
But if we give 'legendary'  a connotation of 'great', 'spectacular' and 'astounding', then I am not sure if they deserve that status. But that's more of a 'I like' <> 'I don't like' discussion.

For the record, I'm pretty neutral about them. I like a lot of their songs and Awake is a really excellent Prog-Metal album. Images & Words though is not Prog-Metal for me but metallized AOR cheese.
Now I need a smiley I think Smile

So I can understand Ivan's doubts to call them a 100% Prog-Metal. The prog-metal factor of their most praised album can be discussed.




Edited by Bonnek - February 18 2010 at 08:44
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 18 2010 at 14:29
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Originally posted by Kashmir75 Kashmir75 wrote:

I leave the Prog Archives for 24 hours, and I come back to find chaos has broken loose! And in a DT thread! Why am I not surprised? Wink

This website isn't called the Yes/King Crimson/Genesis Appreciation Society, it's called the Prog Archives. There's room here for prog lovers of all stripes. Elitism and name-calling is one of the reasons I am sometimes too scared to come in here, and post on here. Purists would have you believe that good music stopped being recorded after 1980. I mean, I like the classic prog bands, but enough is enough. There's no need to bash DT fans. 

DT have every right to be called a prog legend. They've worked hard over the past twenty years, battled against an uncaring mainstream and against fashion and pop culture trends. The photo recently of Rick Wakeman and Mike Portnoy at the Classic Rock awards cemented it all for me. If that's not a sign of their respect in the Prog world, what is? They'll probably never be respected by the metal fraternity (where they are still treated with some suspicion), so why not here?
 
The problem here is that if any member asks a question, he must be ready to listen two possible answers: Yes or No.
 
If you don't want to receive an answer you don't like, then don't ask a question.
 
This is not a fan club, this is a DISCUSSION FORUM, a place where you come to DEBATE, if some people  are not ready to listen opinions they don't like, well, don't come.
 
I been called names, something I haven't done, I gave my opinion and my answer to the question,  I stand on it.
 
Nobody has bashed DT fans at all, simply some of us don't agree with the opinion that DT is a legend of Progressive Rock, live with this.
 
Iván
 
 


You've said multiple times that ELP's fans don't "play the victim", but DT's fans do, as evidenced by this...

Quote
Great, play the victim.....Tell that to ELP fans, an iconic band and beyond any doubt a legend of Prog,. that is attacked constantly, but their fans don't play the victim..


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 18 2010 at 14:55

Summoning the 10 pages of discussion is kind more or less like this:

 

  1. The majority (at least in this thread) have manifested their agreement in that DT do deserve to be called “Legendary”. There are several reason given randomly like this:
    1. They are the most significant band in a very big subgenre and their footprint is almost in all the other bands.
    2. They are not the inventers of the movement but they do are the most famous and successful band of the sub genre taking the prog rock into mainstream music successfully.
    3. They are one of the most active bands in the last 20 years in prog, having a very healthy career and giving many albums that are a reference to prog metal, and maybe to prog rock in general.

 

  1. The ones that don’t share the opinion and said that DT is not a legend state something like this:
    1. They are too young to be considered a legend (IMO 25 years is many many time, counting that they have never been separated or in hiatus). So we have to wait and see when they get older.
    2. They are still active, so we have to wait until they break up and see if their music survives their split and then they will be legendary.
    3. They are not 100% (I think Iván is alone with this, but is an argument as well), so they cannot be a legend if they are not 100% prog. In return, many have complained about ELP and Genesis not been prog in many of their material, but the discussion remains.

 

This is basically the 10 pages of discussion… I don’t if I forget something, but this should be it… I like to state that Dean and Clarke2001 gave great posts in this thread, there's a lot of heat inside, with jokes, anger and pure discussion...  So… keep progging guys…

Change the program inside... Stay in silence is a crime.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 18 2010 at 15:22
Originally posted by J-Man J-Man wrote:

Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Nobody has bashed DT fans at all, simply some of us don't agree with the opinion that DT is a legend of Progressive Rock, live with this.
 
Iván
 
 


You've said multiple times that ELP's fans don't "play the victim", but DT's fans do, as evidenced by this...

 
Is this bashing a fan?
 
Do you EVEN know what bashing means:
 
Quote Bash: to hurl harsh verbal abuse at
 
iS THIS VERBAL ABUSE...please!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
I believe you want at all cost make me look as abusive, I said that a determined member who said "Threy don't want us here, so we better split the forum" was playing the victim...THAT'S NOT BASHING IN USA, CHINA, PERÚ OR TIMBUKTU.
 
Calling a fellow member ignorant (as I been called)...That's bashing.

 
Originally posted by J-Man J-Man wrote:

Originally posted by IVAN IVAN wrote:

 Great, play the victim.....Tell that to ELP fans, an iconic band and beyond any doubt a legend of Prog,. that is attacked constantly, but their fans don't play the victim..
 
I ask anybody....Is this bashing a member or pointing a fact to a member who threatened US to leave the site because nobody likes DT?

Please J-Man, check your dictionary before posting.

Iván


Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - February 18 2010 at 15:24
            
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 18 2010 at 15:28
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Originally posted by J-Man J-Man wrote:

Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Nobody has bashed DT fans at all, simply some of us don't agree with the opinion that DT is a legend of Progressive Rock, live with this.
 
Iván
 
 


You've said multiple times that ELP's fans don't "play the victim", but DT's fans do, as evidenced by this...

[QUOTE]
 
Is this bashing a fan?
 
Do you know what bashuing means:
 
[quote]Bash: to hurl harsh verbal abuse at
 
I believe you want at all cost make me look as abusive, I said that a determined member who said "Threy don't want us here, so we better split the forum" was playing the victim...THAT'S NOT BASHING IN USA, CHINA, PERÚ OR TIMBUKTU.
 
Calling a fellow member ignorant (as I been called)...That's bashing.

 
Originally posted by J-Man J-Man wrote:

Originally posted by IVAN IVAN wrote:

 Great, play the victim.....Tell that to ELP fans, an iconic band and beyond any doubt a legend of Prog,. that is attacked constantly, but their fans don't play the victim..
 
I ask anybody....Is this bashing a member or pointing a fact to a member who threatened US to leave the site because nobody likes DT?

Please J-Man, check your dictionary before posting.

Iván


For the love of God Iván, Teo didn't threaten to leave the site because nobody likes DT. He threatened to leave because of circular discussions like this.

Maybe saying that ELP fans are less "babyish" than DT fans (that's false anyway) isn't "bashing" in your opinion, but it isn't far from it. If you want to go around saying that ELP fans are ALWAYS okay with people bashing ELP, then go around saying that. I don't really care. It's a false assumption that shows a complete lack of knowledge.

I don't need a dictionary for that.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 18 2010 at 15:43
Originally posted by J-Man J-Man wrote:


For the love of God Iván, Teo didn't threaten to leave the site because nobody likes DT. He threatened to leave because of circular discussions like this.

Maybe saying that ELP fans are less "babyish" than DT fans (that's false anyway) isn't "bashing" in your opinion, but it isn't far from it. If you want to go around saying that ELP fans are ALWAYS okay with people bashing ELP, then go around saying that. I don't really care. It's a false assumption that shows a complete lack of knowledge.

I don't need a dictionary for that.
 
Is this bashing?
 
Please check your dictionary, this is arguing, if you don't like it, then go to a fan club..
 
I believe I know about this site, much more than you, I been here sibnce the start, and I seen real bashing
  1. Raff was verbally attacked and insultED for the addition of Iron Maiden...That's bashing.
  2. A guy called Progger came here repeatedly  to say literally "Genesis is crap"...That's bashing
  3. People has said in multiple forums that ELP is pure crap, only two membetrs left the site (Karny - who was banned- and Threefates)...That's bashing
  4. People has said Rick Wakeman is guilty of the bad name of Prog....That's bashing

I said I'm not 100% sure DT is Prog....IS THAT BASHING??????????????????

Iván


Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - February 18 2010 at 15:45
            
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 18 2010 at 15:50
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Originally posted by J-Man J-Man wrote:


For the love of God Iván, Teo didn't threaten to leave the site because nobody likes DT. He threatened to leave because of circular discussions like this.

Maybe saying that ELP fans are less "babyish" than DT fans (that's false anyway) isn't "bashing" in your opinion, but it isn't far from it. If you want to go around saying that ELP fans are ALWAYS okay with people bashing ELP, then go around saying that. I don't really care. It's a false assumption that shows a complete lack of knowledge.

I don't need a dictionary for that.
 
Is this bashing?
 
Please check your dictionary, this is arguing, if you don't like it, then go to a fan club..
 
I believe I know about this site, much more than you, I been here sibnce the start, and I seen real bashing
  1. Raff was verbally attacked and insulting for the addition of Iron Maiden...That's bashing.
  2. A guy called Progger came here repeatedly  to say literally "Genesis is crap"...That's bashing
  3. People has said in multiple forums that ELP is pure crap, only two membetrs left the site...That's bashing
  4. People has said Rick Wakeman is guilty of the bad name of Prog....That's bashing

I said I'm not 100% sure DT is Prog....IS THAT BASHING??????????????????

Iván


Iván, not all bashing has to be to that extreme. Saying one group of fans is BETTER THAN ANOTHER can be called bashing, and I don't really care if you disagree. You haven't just said that you don't think DT is 100% prog, and you know damn well that isn't why I made my comment.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 18 2010 at 15:58
Ok J-Man whatever you want.
 
Seems SOME DT fans are too sensible for the real world.
 
We always have discussions between Yes and Genesis fans and NOBODY  feels offended, that's not bashing that's fact, but from now own I will start my posts with a disclamer:
 
Disclaimer: If DT fans feel offended because I say DT is not the best band of the world or that Petrucci is not god or  I dare to have doubts about their Prog credentials or even worst dare to say that Yes, Genesis, ELP, Kansas, King Crimson (will add 458 names more)  acted more mature in one or more situations, I'm sorry, I fall on my knees and ask forgiveness. CryCryCryCryCry
 
Also, if any of my words hurts their great sensibility, I'm also sorry and will burn my fingers with acid not to write strong words again.
 
Iván
 
 


Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - February 18 2010 at 16:01
            
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 18 2010 at 16:09
Bashing, as I use it, an irrational attack on someone, something....  It tends to be emotional and prejudicial rather than a reasoned response (often anger borne of ignorance, and sometimes borne of an ability to express oneself in a reasonable manner).   Of course saying one group of fans is better than another can be bashing, context plays a role, but if one says that one believes that one group of fans is better than another because of such and such (a reasoned response) then it's a critique. The conclusion doesn't have to be true, but hopefully there is validity to the argument.  I looked at a lot of fans before settling on one during my home renovations.  I did my research, and some fans were definitely better than others.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 18 2010 at 16:09
Some people have questioned in the past what makes Dream Theater progressive, and whilst I think there are numerous reasons why they are innovative band, it all boils down to one concept. They are progressive metal, because nobody played metal like they did at the time. By 1992, their music contained an eclectic source of influences, meticulous rhythmic coordination, a highly respected level of instrumental virtuosity within the realms of metal, and a polish that I think was rarely heard in metal up until that point. They played an advanced game, and I&W started a chain reaction of clone albums. It remains today a phenomenon, as bands strive to replicate the sound.

So, that answers the 'prog' half of the equation for me. As for the legendary status, I think a lot of people have summed it up very well - their recognition in the mainstream, maintained musical integrity, sustained career, and the fact that so many who detest their music point to them as the benchmark of a widening sub-genre of progressive rock, all equate to an undeniable conclusion that the boys have reached the towering heights of revered, legitimate legends of prog. 
Groovy teenage rock with mild prog tendencies: http://www.myspace.com/omniabsenceband
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