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Topic ClosedA new prog sub-genre : post punk
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JLocke View Drop Down
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Points: 4900 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 18 2010 at 12:35
Originally posted by ExittheLemming ExittheLemming wrote:

Originally posted by JLocke JLocke wrote:

Why are we even discussing this? Post-Punk and Prog Rock have nothing to do with each other. The few Post-Punk bands who DO have Prog connections are already here. The purpose of this site is to be a resource for Prog fans, not Rock fans in general. It's ridiculous. 


Perhaps it is ridiculous but in the course of discussing post-punk's prog credentials, the stated purpose of PA, which you have just reiterated, was raised i.e. given the ongoing inclusive/controversial additions to the database of late, there are members who already think that PA is fast becoming a repository for 'all rawk we like' and not just a resource for Prog fans. I happen to believe this has been the case for some time and whether it's a good thing or a bad thing really depends on what we do next - either face reality and become a general rock site or continue to design a harness for a horse that's long out of sight.

I just don't like it. Plenty of sites are already in existence that panders to general rock lovers. This place is one of the few havens for those of us who favor the obscure and complex side of music. I don't think I want to be a part of a community that opens its doors to all just so everybody and their mother will be happy. 

There is nothing wrong with websites that include all genres of music, but please, people . . . if you want to write reviews and discuss bands outside of the Prog realm, go do it on all of the sites that already include those said artists. Enjoy yourselves over there, and leave our clubhouse alone. 


Edited by JLocke - February 18 2010 at 12:37
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Points: 19557 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 18 2010 at 13:01
Originally posted by JLocke JLocke wrote:




I just don't like it. Plenty of sites are already in existence that panders to general rock lovers. This place is one of the few havens for those of us who favor the obscure and complex side of music. I don't think I want to be a part of a community that opens its doors to all just so everybody and their mother will be happy. 

There is nothing wrong with websites that include all genres of music, but please, people . . . if you want to write reviews and discuss bands outside of the Prog realm, go do it on all of the sites that already include those said artists. Enjoy yourselves over there, and leave our clubhouse alone. 
 
I agree, but it would be a betrayal.
 
With the effort of the owners, Administrators, Colaborators and Members, we created a site that is N° 1 in the net on the Prog Rock universe, people joined Prog Archives because they want to talk about Prog, I don't care about Madonna, Lady Gaga, or whoever plays Rock/Pop today.
 
If we turn to a General Music site, many of us will leave, and lets be honest, forget about being N° 1, probably Prog Archives or General Music Archives will be a very small site at the shadow of monsters like Allmusic.
 
Just think in something, I'm here since 2004, and most of the members who were here then, are here now, plus hundreds of new members, few sites can claim such a loyal membership, for God's sake, even the banned trolls change names to come back LOL
 
And why is this people loyal?
 
For two reasons:
  1. We like the site and the people
  2. We love Progressive Rock
If one of this factors is altered, forget about PA.
 
Very few  genres as Prog have such a loyal fanbase that follow a band for 40+ years , if we morph into Allmusic, many will leave (the most fauthful ones) and we will only have some fanboys who come here once or twice to talk about their favorite band and leave when somebody says they are nothing special..
 
Iván
 
 


Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - February 18 2010 at 13:12
            
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Points: 4900 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 18 2010 at 13:05
I agree 100%, Ivan. I certainly won't be sticking around here if it comes to that, although I doubt my presence will be much missed. However, I'm sure plenty of the more important members to the team like yourself will also call it quits if things keep going in this direction, and I wonder, will it be worth it, then? WIll the site admins be happy with their attitude that ended up costing them a large portion of their staff? I would like to think not. 
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 18 2010 at 13:13
Originally posted by JLocke JLocke wrote:

I agree 100%, Ivan. I certainly won't be sticking around here if it comes to that, although I doubt my presence will be much missed. However, I'm sure plenty of the more important members to the team like yourself will also call it quits if things keep going in this direction, and I wonder, will it be worth it, then? WIll the site admins be happy with their attitude that ended up costing them a large portion of their staff? I would like to think not. 
Eh? Who's attitude? Confused
What?
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Points: 4900 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 18 2010 at 13:19
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by JLocke JLocke wrote:

I agree 100%, Ivan. I certainly won't be sticking around here if it comes to that, although I doubt my presence will be much missed. However, I'm sure plenty of the more important members to the team like yourself will also call it quits if things keep going in this direction, and I wonder, will it be worth it, then? WIll the site admins be happy with their attitude that ended up costing them a large portion of their staff? I would like to think not. 
Eh? Who's attitude? Confused

Whoever allows this nonsense to continue to the point where folks start to leave. 

If you are not one of those people, then I wasn't talking about you. 
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Points: 7971 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 18 2010 at 13:21
I agree with you Iván. I wouldn't be here if this was an average rock site. Thumbs Up
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Points: 4900 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 18 2010 at 13:25
Originally posted by CCVP CCVP wrote:

I agree with you Iván. I wouldn't be here if this was an average rock site. Thumbs Up

I think the majority of us feel that way, actually.

Which again, makes this whole thing seem even more insane, because the majority protests, yet the changes keep coming. I know the 'PA is not a democracy' argument comes into play, here, but come on. 
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Points: 19557 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 18 2010 at 13:34
Originally posted by JLocke JLocke wrote:


Whoever allows this nonsense to continue to the point where folks start to leave. 

If you are not one of those people, then I wasn't talking about you. 
 
No J-Locke, I understand your confusion, but as far as I know, no Admnministrator has ever even mentioned the posibility of making this a gebneral music site.
 
By the contrary, they work a lot to keep this site open but at the same time to keep the site as a Prog resource, as a fact all of them are fans of Prog:
 
  1. Tony R is a fanatic of Rush
  2. Bob (Easy Livin) breaks his back keeping this site clean and a Heeper toi the bones.
  3. Jody is Prog Metal Specialist
  4. Guigo (Atkingani) is member of the Symphonic Team
  5. Jim Garten is a Prog fan
  6. Easy Money is in the Jazz Fusion team
  7. Last but not least Dean who is member of the Xover team.

So hardly they will care of turning this site in a new Allmusic.

Those propositions normally come from members who want to add their favorite band for reasons I can only guess (Not the case of Raff or Exithel, they are only pointing a tendency).
 
Iván


Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - February 18 2010 at 13:35
            
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Points: 4900 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 18 2010 at 13:42
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Originally posted by JLocke JLocke wrote:


Whoever allows this nonsense to continue to the point where folks start to leave. 

If you are not one of those people, then I wasn't talking about you. 
 
No J-Locke, I understand your confusion, but as far as I know, no Admnministrator has ever even mentioned the posibility of making this a gebneral music site.
 
By the contrary, they work a lot to keep this site open but at the same time to keep the site as a Prog resource, as a fact all of them are fans of Prog:
 
  1. Tony R is a fanatic of Rush
  2. Bob (Easy Livin) breaks his back keeping this site clean and a Heeper toi the bones.
  3. Jody is Prog Metal Specialist
  4. Guigo (Atkingani) is member of the Symphonic Team
  5. Jim Garten is a Prog fan
  6. Easy Money is in the Jazz Fusion team
  7. Last but not least Dean who is member of the Xover team.

So hardly they will care of turning this site in a new Allmusic.

Those propositions normally come from members who want to add their favorite band for reasons I can only guess (Not the case of Raff or Exithel, they are only pointing a tendency).
 
Iván

Ivan . . . what I'm saying is very simple: The guys who run the show will either allow everybody to wedge their bands in and ultimately destroy the site, or they won't. I was not accusing anybody directly of doing this yet; I was merely speaking hypothetically. IF the admins do allow this site to lose its way over time, it would not be intentional, nor would it be done with malice. 

I'm well aware that everybody here loves Prog Rock, otherwise they wouldn't even be here, but I was simply stating a scenario; an unlikely one, but not impossible. Regardless of their personal tastes, the admins obviously want to be fair and make sure others' voices are heard when it comes down to artist inclusion, sub-genre definition, etc. I'm just saying that, in an attempt to be fair and balanced, the admins MIGHT allow too many feet in the door one day, and without us even being aware, the damned thing will simply burst open, and every rock band in existence will ultimately be included.

So forgive me if I was unclear; I do not believe anybody on the administration team would intentionally ruin this site, but indirectly, I think things have already begun to unravel, and nobody in particular is to blame, though I would hope the admins would put a stop to it if things got too out of hand. We'll see.
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Points: 11420 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 18 2010 at 13:47
Stirring stuff certainly Winkand apologies for taking the thread off topic but I think the following is importantUnhappy

Given that you think a deliberate change towards a General Rock site would be a regrettable move (and I also can see the many pitfalls you outline) Do you both (JLocke and Ivan) believe that there is a danger of compromising a Progressive Rock specialist site if the current rate and types of additions that have populated the three metal, post rock/math rock, progressive electronic, and prog related genres continues under the genre guidelines currently in place ?

Don't ask me to qualify the following cos like everyone else who's posted, I really can't be arsed:

The genres I listed above are swimming with bands that are either not even remotely prog or not even remotely prog related. Presumably they got there under the radar of the current guidelines/admission teams ? and their number will surely swell if uncontested ? Does anything need to be done to ensure that PA remains a haven for the obscure and complex side of music or do we just hope for the best and pray the site doesn't degenerate into a General Rock site if things keep going in this direction ?

That's an entire post without any sarcasm Clap


Edited by ExittheLemming - February 18 2010 at 14:05
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Points: 11420 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 18 2010 at 13:52
^ Damn, you answered all my points in the time it took me to type a non snarky post.
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Points: 4900 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 18 2010 at 14:00
EDIT: Oh! I just read your above post. Okay, then. LOL
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Points: 4521 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 18 2010 at 15:36
Originally posted by JLocke JLocke wrote:

Originally posted by ExittheLemming ExittheLemming wrote:

Originally posted by JLocke JLocke wrote:

Why are we even discussing this? Post-Punk and Prog Rock have nothing to do with each other. The few Post-Punk bands who DO have Prog connections are already here. The purpose of this site is to be a resource for Prog fans, not Rock fans in general. It's ridiculous. 


Perhaps it is ridiculous but in the course of discussing post-punk's prog credentials, the stated purpose of PA, which you have just reiterated, was raised i.e. given the ongoing inclusive/controversial additions to the database of late, there are members who already think that PA is fast becoming a repository for 'all rawk we like' and not just a resource for Prog fans. I happen to believe this has been the case for some time and whether it's a good thing or a bad thing really depends on what we do next - either face reality and become a general rock site or continue to design a harness for a horse that's long out of sight.

I just don't like it. Plenty of sites are already in existence that panders to general rock lovers. This place is one of the few havens for those of us who favor the obscure and complex side of music. I don't think I want to be a part of a community that opens its doors to all just so everybody and their mother will be happy. 

There is nothing wrong with websites that include all genres of music, but please, people . . . if you want to write reviews and discuss bands outside of the Prog realm, go do it on all of the sites that already include those said artists. Enjoy yourselves over there, and leave our clubhouse alone. 


Well first of all, I don't have any urge to start reviewing post-punk albums. I got enough on my plate already.
Also I don't agree that post-punk wouldn't be 'obscure and complex'. There is plenty of obscure and challenging music there (Tuxedo Moon, Durutti Column, Coil, Foetus, Swans, and so on). Personally I think those bands are more obscure and certainly more complex then something like Symphony X.

Another reason why I think the whole idea is not ridiculous is because Prog Archives somehow needs to find an answer on the ongoing pressure to add new bands:
1) Not adding bands is not an option. That is the same as becoming irrelevant.
2) Adding bands the way it's done now must be a hell of a job for those involved and creates many new additions that are frowned upon. Especially in the subs ExitTheL mentionned.
3) So is there an alternative? Could PA indulge a general rock or whatever section?

I respect the site as it is and all people who helped creating it, but being a newbie here doesn't mean I am 'new' to prog or can't have an opinion about this whole issue.



Edited by Bonnek - February 18 2010 at 15:41
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Points: 8138 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 18 2010 at 15:44
Originally posted by Vompatti Vompatti wrote:

^ You might want to take a look at the "classic artists" list on this site, or the one on Wikipedia, both of which obviously include Joy Division, The Cure, Echo and the Bunnymen and Siouxie and the Banshees.
I prefer these subdivsions http://www.gutsofdarkness.com/god/styles.php which gave a better view on the music of the bands reviewed. There you have the gothic genre with subgenres : batcave, cold wave, dark wave, death rock, gothic rock, post punk goth and punk with subgenres : crust, garage, horror punk, no wave, post punk, psychobilly.
And you will notice that prog-rock gathers only 5 subgenres : zeuhl, RIO, symphonic, krautrock, canterbury. post-rock is not included, neither are jazz-rock nor extreme metal, nor electronic music.
 
If we want a progo-prog site, we should delete AT LEAST 70 % of the bands included !!!! But I believe the main goal of this site is to help people who are not into prog dig this genre, through other genres that are more or less related and that appeal to a wider audience (technical death-metal, post-rock, alternative rock...)
 
The site "guts of darkness - archive sof experimantal and dark music" is stunningly diverse and eclectic (probably the only one on the net gathering so many musical genres), and I admire the open-mindedness of their contributors. People who write reviews are all specialized in their genre (would it be prog or gothic, punk, world, classical, hardcore, rap (!)...) therefore one can trust their classifications. They have also a tag called "ovni inclassable" (unclassifiable UFO) with bands that are often tagged RIO or eclectic on PA.
 
 


Edited by lucas - February 18 2010 at 15:45
"Magma was the very first gothic rock band" (Didier Lockwood)
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Points: 4900 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 18 2010 at 16:12
Originally posted by Bonnek Bonnek wrote:

 

1) Not adding bands is not an option. That is the same as becoming irrelevant.

Sure it is. We deny bands from inclusion all the time here.


2) Adding bands the way it's done now must be a hell of a job for those involved and creates many new additions that are frowned upon. Especially in the subs ExitTheL mentionned.

Every band that is added ultimately fits the sub-genre they end up in, otherwise they wouldn't get added. If some members don't like those bands, it doesn't have any baring on what the team leaders say. That's how it should be.


3) So is there an alternative? Could PA indulge a general rock or whatever section?

No. The closest we have to that is 'Prog-Related', and that should give enough elbow room to satisfy anybody. 


I respect the site as it is and all people who helped creating it, but being a newbie here doesn't mean I am 'new' to prog or can't have an opinion about this whole issue. 

Never said it did.
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Points: 24429 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 18 2010 at 17:44
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Those propositions normally come from members who want to add their favorite band for reasons I can only guess (Not the case of Raff or Exithel, they are only pointing a tendency).
 
Iván


Thank you for clarifying the last point. You know how furious I get when people imply that I have no integrityWink.


Edited by Raff - February 18 2010 at 17:51
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Points: 8774 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 18 2010 at 18:14
Originally posted by JLocke JLocke wrote:

Originally posted by Bonnek Bonnek wrote:

 

1) Not adding bands is not an option. That is the same as becoming irrelevant.

Sure it is. We deny bands from inclusion all the time here.

I think he means to stop adding bands altogether.
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Points: 7003 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 18 2010 at 18:25
I'd rather listen to Wire, Pere Ubu, The Fall or Talking Heads tha just about anything produced by Genesis, Yes, Jethro Tull or Pink Floyd in the 1980s, but I wouldn't want any of them included in Progarchives because - and this is the crucial point - they're not prog bands.
'Like so many of you
I've got my doubts about how much to contribute
to the already rich among us...'

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Points: 4373 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 18 2010 at 18:31
Originally posted by Syzygy Syzygy wrote:

I'd rather listen to Wire, Pere Ubu, The Fall or Talking Heads tha just about anything produced by Genesis, Yes, Jethro Tull or Pink Floyd in the 1980s, but I wouldn't want any of them included in Progarchives because - and this is the crucial point - they're not prog bands.


So we leave out the most progressive and forward-thinking bands of the 80s because they're not mad for mellotrons? Dead
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Points: 19557 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 18 2010 at 21:34
Originally posted by WalterDigsTunes WalterDigsTunes wrote:


So we leave out the most progressive and forward-thinking bands of the 80s because they're not mad for mellotrons? Dead
 
No, because this is a PROGRESSIVE ROCK SITE, and those bands no matter how good they were are not Prog,..The Mellotron argument is absurd, a Prog band may play with bagpipes, or even without keyboards and still be Prog.
 
Yes, we have admited non Prog bands, but it was a mistake (in some cases) but a first mistake doesn't justify a second one, except in logic classes, two wrong statements don't make a good one.
 
If somebody hits you in the eye, you don't crash your other eye in a door to make it even...In the same way if a non Prog band is added, you accept it, rant if you want, but don't add another non Prog band saying "If one is here, a second doesn't matter", that is absurd, each new non Prog band added makes us loose more credibility.
 
Iván


Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - February 18 2010 at 21:48
            
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